Stéphane Dion proposes carbon ‘tax shift’

Stéphane Dion outlined his vision for the economy and environment during a speech at the Canadian Club of Toronto.

Dion proposed a carbon tax during the speech, saying it will be revenue neutral because he would also lower other taxes.

MacKay Editorial Cartoons: Liberals uneasy about Dion’s plan for carbon tax

Some Liberals are uneasy of the plan, fearing it will be difficult to sell during an election.

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620 thoughts on “Stéphane Dion proposes carbon ‘tax shift’

  1. The only person “getting pretty excited that you wouldn’t have to face my criticism” is you, because you still refuse to offer facts backing up your claims on GS or other Liberal policies.

    Today, the western provinces, including Sask, are talking about expanding trade with Asia. Oddly enough, Chretien and Martin never did this; Harper decreased our dependence on the USA by targetting Peru, Colombia, and the EU.

    Keep dissing the west all you like, but facts are facts, and your party failed.

  2. You want another situation where the Supreme Court was dead wrong? R. v. D.B.

    The decision was split 5-4, and I analyzed both in a research project. I can honestly say that other than complete incompetence, there is no way that the majority ruling could have been written. It was wrong beyond belief, but yet Liberals and other lefties always beat on that to prevent Tories from passing tougher youth sentencing laws.

    Interested in hearing my findings? Or are you still going to play ostrich?

  3. And the best you can come up with is splendid isolation where you hide for a and refuse to address any points. If this is how you deal with facts then that is your prerogative, just like your stupid friend Gillhollee’s to slander me and call me names.

    You already lost my respect by refusing the debate, even as you said you will try for at least twice a week. Now I have more facts against you, and I can pound your lights out with them any time I want.

    Godd luck trying to defend yourself.

  4. In continuation with my comment on Saskatchewan, today they just announced surplus of almost a billion dolalrs, not just thanks to oil revenues but from other resources like potash.

    They are one of two provinces to post a surplus in these tough economic times (the other being Manitoba), but think what will happen if we let Dion’s GS go into action? Whoosh! It’s gone, and they’re back to have-not.

    Maybe there’s a reason why Brad Wall is so against Dion. Too bad you’re too blind to see it.

  5. Things you should know: the Illuminati is run by reptilian astral entities known throughout history as Djinn, Nagas, Sheti, Angels/Demons, Dragons, Drucul etc. that rule the higher echelons of Freemasonry and do foul sex&torture rituals usually with young children getting eaten. They’ll probably stage terror attacks soon, then will come an American union(WW3 too) & a staged alien invasion w/Draconian-saviours! Get storable food, support Stewart Swerdlow, Alex Jones, Dr.Deagle & David Icke!

  6. That is true, Ignatief is in now instead I think. And your right, I keep wondering why the liberals keep getting so many votes from people even though they do and did nothing for this country.

  7. Hey, here’s the great thing about this video. Its dead! Stephane quit. He resigned. Rightfully so as well. The guy is a complete abomination of a politician. Total embarassment. Thank god that turd is gone! Now you scum – bag Liberals have a part-timer in charge?! Sheesh, the Liberals just cant seem to get it right. Yeah Ignatieff is a part-timer, a part time Canadian…living half his life in the US…at least Mr. Harper is %100 and then some…wow, Liberals are lost more than ever.

  8. Yep. Exactly. Whenever he is asked a question about anything to do with his plan, all he does is slam Mr. Harper. Great answer you effing dolt Stephane, now how about something about your platform. Sheesh.

  9. Dude, not so good?? Its sucks. Its terrible. A total atrocity and an embarassment. English is this countries founding colonial language. Our FIRST language. Our primary business language, and spoken by the majority of the population as their FIRST language. I don’t want anymore frenchmen representing my English colony anymore.

  10. Yup exactly. A frenchman calling Canada his country is like a frog that can fly. You may live here, but by no means is Canada a country of, and from, the french. You may call Canada your home because you born here or are a citizen, but lets be very crystal clear frenchie, Canada is primarily NATIVE land, none of which spoke french, ever, and secondly an English founded and created colony. The french were beat up into Quebec where they were “allowed” to stay, be thankful.

  11. And instead of focusing their attention on the environment when the books were balanced, the Liberals started up Adscam, and until today they still haven’t paid back even 1/10 of the money.

    If they paid ANY effort into fixing the environment, they should have at least taken a few steps, but Dion, as minister, did NOTHING. And in 2006, he HIMSELF said Kyoto won’t be met. So he was the one who gave up, and broke our world to the world.

    Pretty hard to give credit to someone who did nothing.

  12. This is another Liberal lie: we signed Kyoto because we wanted to try it out. Once you signed it, you have to honour it, plain and simple. In fact, Chretien said that himself at the Liberal Leadership convention, but it was HIM who failed at the deal.

    Moreover, if you tried, you would have at lesat have a plan, but there was nothing for YEARS. In fact, greening the economy had been around since 1994, and even as we left deficit (something created by Trudeau), we didn’t get anything.

  13. And my favourite media bias: Ralph Klein, wgi ran the first debt-free province in Canada for decades. Alberta is still debt free, although Ed Stelmach is starting to run it into the toilet.

    All the media remembers about him is his alcoholism, his “eastern bums and creeps” remark, the throwing pennies incident, etc. While the actions should be condemned, the press never praises him for slaying the debt, and painted him as a western redneck instead. That’s your free and fair press for you.

  14. As for Chretien, the press will never discuss his scandals. Income trust, Shawinigate, Adscam, etc. All they’d show are his “Team Canada” missions to Asia and Europe and S. America, and how he “promoted Canadian values and goods” despite failing at least two major deals.

    Moreover, it still doesn’t address the patronage in his appointments. The only senator he appointed NOT of the Liberals in Frank Malkhovich, an NHL player. Hardly someone with enough politics to be “sober second thought.”

  15. Not to mention, Trudeau nationalized everything in sight but ended up putting us in HUGE deficits though: for every dollar in tax he collected, he spent $1.23, meaning the deficit mess was created by him, not Mulroney, as you Liberals proclaim.

    And the time that Trudeau was in Alberta or BC (can’t remember which) and he greeted the people with his middle finger. But the press nevered call him out for harassment, instead praising him for having his own style. So the press is fair is a lie.

  16. Regarding the media keeping people like Trudeau accountable, let’s recall:

    Trudeau destroyed intergovernmental relations with his “whatever I say goes” attitude. Had it not been for Lougheed proposing the 7-50 amending formula, the only way Trudeau would back down is if every province went against him.

    Yet the media rarely mentions it was Lougheed who recommended the compromise. All they’d say is “we can’t satisfy every province’s wants.” In fact, you once used that on me in a debate.

  17. I agree. If they disagree just leave it that. But most on here resort to insults and ridiculas comparisons. Rarely do you ever see presentable facts to support their point of view. I always understand that others will have a different opinion. Shows the lack of maturity here.

  18. I don’t know where you get that bogus comparison but hey. You are welcome to your opinions.

    I believe the combination of the coalition equals more than that of who voted for the conservatives. The funny thing is that Harper tried to do the same thing, joining what he now calls the seperatists. He proposed a coalition with the Bloc in 2004, They turned it down. Now all he does is make attacks on them about the Liberals joing them.

  19. How is it communism? The conservatives held 37.65 percent on the votes…. the three coalition parties add up to 54.42. Which number is larger? These are voters wants. 54.42 did not want conservative government. Sure they didn’t vote with a coalition in mind but Harper is ignoring and worsening the potential of a recession!!

  20. Do you even fucking get a clue to how it works?!?!?!
    you can make more in the long run, you have a tax reduction but pay more for produce co2, you pay a little to produce less, you earn more…

  21. Now look at what this fucktard is doing! He could’nt get elected so he gets in bed with the bloc. What a commy bastard, DO you idiots now see how much of a communist he is. It is amazing that he trys to get power with out a election, OH ya he has his little commy governer general who will give it to him.

    COMMY PIGS!!!!!!!!!

  22. But that aside, you still can’t say that Sask’s report is questionable this way, because Wall (or Calvert) has a responsibility to defend his province from intrusions, even from Ottawa.

    Remember that Calvert tried suing Harper for the equalization promise, and Danny Williams spat with both Harper AND Martin. So while we shouldn’t condone the bias, we can’t discount their opinion either.

    We must question ALL sides, and the fact that you NEVER questioned Dion and GS shows your ignorance.

  23. There is no reason to manipulate such numbers? What a joke, because that’s exactly what Dion did.

    One analysis I heard was that Dion assumed employment rate and job growth would remain a steady 4 to 4.5 % throughout the 4 years. That way, the plan will give him the revenues to cut taxes and get surpluses.

    Now we’re near recession, Ontario’s in have-not status, and AB’s new royalties kick in Jan. 09, with their oil market fluctuating at best. How does Dion deal with that? Oh yeah, he can’t!

  24. It’s too late to debate now, since the Liberals were thrashed, Dion’s on his way out, and the new candidates are staying away from GS.

    The fact that all you can do is throw campaign rhetoric means you have no logic or reason. And you gladly embracing and recruiting partisan creeps like Gillhollee without knowing them (“I don’t really know him so I couldn’t say anything”) means you value partisanship over debate integrity.

    Truly hypocritical that you would want a healthy debate with me.

  25. What’s minimal is your ability to look at biases from both sides. One of the funniest things I heard was that the Liberals were outraged at the so-called personal attacks on Dion, especially his ability to speak English.

    So assassinating Harper’s character in 04 and 06 didn’t count? The fact that they made fun of how Preston Manning couldn’t speak French isn’t important? And given that Harper learned French fluently in 5 years, what does that say about Dion? Think carefully before you talk!

  26. Dion is a fool.What difference does it make. If you believe in evolution humans are just a product a natural selection. In essence just an advanced biological form of a supper computer. Therefore why would you be so concerned about what happens to a world that is basicialy a joke. If you believe in god however then you should have no fear,and merely act as a steward of this world.

  27. Canada is lagging behind on Carbon taxing and now that Dion might be gone, Canada stays on the bottom with the U.S. and China on this issue. Not electing Dion was a step backwards.

  28. Why does everybody bring up his accent?
    Is it really something that should be taken into consideration when we are on the track to elect a new prime minister?
    I want a leader who has the right goals, ambitions, and education to run this country.
    He can speak strictly portugese for all i care.

  29. Are you fucking serious? I am very much aware. Jean Chretien’s government delivered surplus after surplus. They only announced massive spending after years of paying down the deficit. Your presumptuous nature will doom you.

  30. You damn ignorant fool. Your ignorance of economic and political history will destroy us all. If you see virtue in the Canadian Liberal party, much less Stephan Dion, the future looks grim for you.

  31. Taxes are going to rise regardless of the party. An economic slowdown will result in far less revenue going to the government. Either the government will go into deficit, or raise taxes. Dion obviously won’t implement his programs right away.

    He’s on the right track for addressing those social concerns in his platform. A vote for Dion means that if we’ll be able to afford the programs, we’ll commit to them. A Conservative vote means we’ll ignore them.

  32. Looking past the embarrassing broken English, the last thing Canadians need is another tax. Why not take away from some of the ridiculous social programs he’s promised money to (80 billion in promises already) and invest some money in new technology.

  33. Leadership takes knowledge and a sense of realism. This man possess such qualities. Rejecting Conservative propaganda and looking past an awkward accent, one sees a highly competent individual who’s willing to admit there’s a problem because he knows there are ways of fixing it.

  34. Dion has said that his involvement as “an activist for the separatist cause” ended during a five-hour, rum-and-Coke fuelled discussion with a federalist household while he was going door-to-door for the PQ, but he did not openly commit to federalism until much later. At the time of the 1980 referendum, his sentiments were neutral. In his own words, the ‘no’ victory left him “neither moved nor outraged. To tell the truth, I felt no particular feeling.”

  35. Because the party was there… I wanted to challenge my dad… the way to become an adult sometimes is to say the contrary to your father. Each evening, I would try out a new argument I had heard on the separatist network and my father was demolishing it… My father very quietly and very respectfully was refuting me, without insulting me.[6

  36. Dion was involved with the sovereignty movement, first as a teenager attending a Jesuit college in Quebec City,[6], and later as a university student campaigning for Parti Québécois candidate Louise Beaudoin in the 1976 election.[7] Mr. Dion described his experience as follows:

  37. Although i am a Conservationalist the Environmental issue has been a self serving ploy. If anyone can read through the hypocrisy it is a dangerous method. The materials and resources used for waste management for example is destroying more forests and wildlife. This a a propaganda Big Money maker for all levels of Government whether, Federal,Provincial/State,Regional and Local.

  38. Truthfully, I didn’t watch any of it because I don’t need to. I knew who I was voting for before the debate started and nothing the other candidates say could’ve swayed me in any other direction.

  39. The more I read of your stuff, the more convinced I am that you didn’t actually read or understand the points I was trying to make. I did not alledge that I was going to vote Liberal- I think that they did elect the wrong preson at the leadership conference- and I do not hate the Conservatives.

    You also seem to be falling back on stock arguments, so I’m just going to drop the issue. “I blame your parents” for raising you without integrity.

  40. If you don’t follow any of it, I’d disagree that you’re making an informed decision.

    And the French debates included Stephen Harper, Jack Layton, Gilles Duceppe, and Elizabeth May as well.

  41. Bloodrage, I make $503 an hour working for myself…so there! Actually I just completely made that up and I’m just trying to make myself feel important.

  42. I live in BC. You can ask anyone out here how popular the carbon tax is. Sure I believe in green alternatives but further taxing gas just makes EVERYTHING more expensive. There is no frigging way I want to pay a double carbon tax if the Liberals get in.

  43. Why should I watch the french debates for a party I would NEVER vote for? Im not being discriminatory, Im being objective. I dont vote for the liberals so how am I lying? I blame your parents for deluding you into thinking that you don’t have any individual responsibility.

  44. You can doubt all you want. Its your opinion even though its wrong. And back then you right, no one did care about climate change. But that was 15 years ago and the people who argue thta climate change is a myth are idiots.

  45. A greenhouse. Not green house. Which grows food. I use the heat that the sun generates in the greenhouse to heat my house. It cost a total of 200 dollars so every idiot can do this. Its not brain surgery. And no, if everyone is content to pollute as much as they do, why should I help them?

  46. Wrong, because there is a bike route all the way there which since I don’t have to fight the traffic actually takes less time than driving. So in actuality, I spend 2 hours a day biking to and from work.

  47. And I thought that Stephane Dion actually did very well at explaining his plan as of the French debates- which I watched, but I doubt you did.

    Why do I think that?

    Because you’re a a biased, discriminatory, arrogant, lying jerk, who I could absolutely see ignoring the French debates on principle.

    I’m sorry, and I mean no ill will, but that’s how you come off in your replies, seriously.

  48. But either way… Although Stephane Dion has been a part of the Liberal Party during those years, yes… Some point out that he was Environment Minister for two years (although that means nothing… The conservatives prove that two years change little in that department- Rona Ambrose? Seriously??)

    I really and truly think that his government will not be the same as theirs- his caucus is a lot stronger than Harper’s, IMO (don’t get me wrong, I’m not into Harper-bashing).

  49. Of course, I seriously doubt your first two claims have ANY substance to them. In addition, point of fact, I DO remember those 13 years, and for the first six of them, quite frankly, nobody was that concerned by climate change. Some still argue that our carbon emissions are not the culprit. In light of that, no, neither Jean Chretien nor Paul Martin were perfect, but they righted other wrongs of the time. Neither could be considered the “worst” Prime Ministers that we have had.

  50. Secondly… “Green House”? So either your power company assures you that they get their power from green sources, which you use to heat your house, OR you can afford to run wind turbines, OR you are being literal and grow a special heat-generating plant that you actually keep in a greenhouse you run. I’m not sure I completely understand what you’re saying here, but you’re either gullible, rich enough to afford a better commute, or really selfish keeping this miracle plant to yourself.

  51. First off… The average speed of a road bike tends to be 18-22 mph. This means that you allegedly spend about four hours of every work day biking to work and back. If you spend eight hours at work and eight hours sleeping, with an extra hour tacked on for a given mean (or two- gotta keep up your strength for that bike ride)… Then you have three hours to spend youtubing and maintaining a social life on weekdays.

  52. all the young people like you who pollute , throw crap on the ground, drive like idiots and then complain about gas prices, and have babies out of wedlock are the cuases of pollution

  53. you calling me an idiot is a riot because you are the 15 year old idiot who was brought up by idiot parents who don’t know what individual responsibility is. The liberals have had 13 years to right the wrongs and did they do ANYTHING to fix it?! No! YOU DON’T REMEMBER BECAUSE YOU WERE TOO YOUNG and you’re the one calling me an idiot. Lol.. I bike 40 miles a day to get to work, I run a green house to heat my home, I have all florescent lights so before you say i fuck up the world, think about

  54. Argue all you want…Stephanie won’t win…face the reality. Majority or Minority, for Harper, it’s still a win, and he’s still PM….that’s the reality.

  55. Excuse, french is our fucking second language. It’s not like he’s speaking in a Russian accent. You’re a hypocrite. Don’t like french accents, move the hell out of Canada. We don’t need idiots like you ruining our country.

  56. You should be banned from YouTube for the soul purpose of being a complete and utter fool. ALL parties lie and ALL don’t keep promises. The Liberals know the real issues and what to do about them. I like the Carbon Tax idea. I’m a 15 year old girl and I think it’s time people paid the price on pollution. I didn’t fuck up the world, people like you did and you deserve to pay.

  57. So you are an expert now?

    You will never get rich working for yourself either, and I beg to differ. I work for a major corporation, and I make 500 dollars an hour so before you go off spouting crap about corporations, I suggest you go work for one and find out the truth.

  58. 5 years ago Stephen Harper gave a speech plagiarized from the Australian leader and the liberals would like us to remember that. Funny, because 5 years ago the liberals were embroiled in adscam which cost the taxpayers millions of dollars and in which no liberal MP ever admitted complicity. I wonder which event people will remember going to the polls?

  59. just because his english is not that good ?
    what a weak argument, economists experts said that the carbon tax is not gonna harm our economy and stéphane dion’s plan is very well built.

  60. I do not want someone who can’t even grasp the English language, the founding state of this country, representing me or my community in anyway at all. Stephane, take a hike.

  61. Meaning what? Dion is NOT canadian. NDP will NEVER win, and neither will the Green party. Obama will be the next president and he is not another Bush, unlike Palin and Mccain.

  62. Dion hasn’t kept any of his promises. Harper on the other hand has kept a few. If you want a government that actually does something, unlike the liberals, then vote conservative.

    What have the liberals done for you, to make you vote for them?

  63. And when exactly has the Liberals made this country better? Raising taxes, job loss, deficient economy, and those are the good points that the liberals have done to Canada. Arts is only for the rich anyway.

    And if you took better care of yourself you wouldn’t need a hospital at all. He actually gave more money to healthcare where Dion has not. You probably live in Toronto anyway, where they ONLY vote liberal because its the best they know.

  64. “we need to put every penny back into the hands of canadians”-stephane dion (~2:45)

    when was the last time a liberal, or conservative government put every penny back into the hands of anyone’s hands other than they’re own?

  65. Oh no! I didn’t mean the way it sounded. I think Mr. Dion is a wonderful man. I just don’t think he can get his point across. He needs to make people more aware of how stupid and screwed up Harper is, because I know of so many people saying that Harper’s not going to fool them again and Dion needs to bring that up.

  66. Damn you’re an idiot. Stephen Harper has done nothing for this country but make it worse, and his plans if he gets a majority will bring this country down. He wants to cut money to arts and he wants people to have a prescription for vitamins! Where does that make sense to you? Our hospitals are already crowded, and he wants to crowd our clinics too!

  67. How can you hate Steven Harper. He may be a stiff piece of cardboard, but he’s doing good for Canada and if you can’t see that and are going to vote liberal anyway, then you obviously don’t give a rat’s ass about this country.

  68. Because if you have any idea of what the Liberal platform is, it is taxing people of how much pollution they cause. AKA raising taxes.

    And when has the liberal party EVER kept a promise. Oh, that’s right, NEVER. They don’t even know what a promise is. And I guess you’ve never heard of individual responsibility.

  69. And that attitude of throwing campaign rhetoric will hurt you. I’m not like most people who buy into stuff whatever party threw. I look at all facts and opinions from others before judging. My earlier comment on Ontario and New Brunswick are examples of this.

    And regarding rethinking views, I think this applies to you more than to me, since you still haven’t proven you’re capable of using logic and transcending parties. Might I suggest more researching and less assuming about my personality?

  70. …however I hope to still have that debate before the election…it would likely be a weekend…I am more than willing but I have priorities (I am a Liberal who thinks its easy to make priorities ;)…)

  71. What has happened is very tight academic schedule and my mother who just had reconstructive knee surgery…the reason I threw back campaign rhetoric is it is typically effective for people to get the point quickly and to rethink their views…i would still like to have a policy debate with you but unfortunately i simply dont have the time…I havent touched youtube unless someone says something way off base that i cant simply leave alone (ie “uneducated Liberal loving baboon”)…

  72. And regarding Liberals, let’s hear what your provincial cousins have to say:

    New Brunswick, led by a Liberal premier, is opposed to the tax since it’ll kill 100 000 jobs. Your response was too bad so sad, and and the workers should have upgraded when they had the chance.

    Ontario’s Liberal finance minister today said: “One of the things that…would be a mistake right now is massive shifts in tax burden at a time when there’s uncertainty.”

    You a Liberal, yes; you aware of the facts, no.

  73. Now that’s an ironic statement, given that all the rebuttals you offered to my arguments have been nothing more than Liberal propaganda. You regurgitate everythign from the Dion platform, but offered no critical analysis of any sort. Pretty irresponsible, don’t you think?

    And you got the guts to challenge me to a policy and election promise debate, but you haven’t been heard of since. Whatever happened to that determined attitude you had in policy analysis earlier?

  74. where does it say that the Liberals will raise taxes?
    The Green Shift is revenue neutral. Taxing pollution instead of earnings and investment…and Mr Dion has explicitly said that he will not raise the GST (despite the idiotic move to cut it by the PM as a pure political move)…
    I take pride in my on-going education thank you very much😉 …uneducated would not be a way to describe me…A Liberal yes, uneducated-certainly not…

  75. I think the Liberals are simply trying to’put a price’ on pollution. We’re all to blame for the shape the world is in right now. Now, as far as Stephane Dion goes, I may not like him nor any of the candidates, but I would vote for the person I simply disliked over the person I hate Stephen Harper.

  76. The Green Shift isn’t raising taxes, its shifting taxes from investment, and earnings to pollution-from what you earn to what you burn…
    Pretty self-explanatory…
    I apologize that you got caught up in the Conservative propaganda…

  77. The Liberals, NDP, Greens and Bloc ALL have a party plank that stating that they will ban all handguns and semi-automatic Rifles and Shotguns. If you were a recreational shooter or a (God-forbid) hunter, youd be advocating the confiscation of your property by voting for any of the left-wing parties!

  78. For me i think the the stupiest of you guys are those who judge him about his french accent or appearence, this guy is an intellectual, he have good idea he look frank, when he say that he want the good for canada. but it is his fuckin party that i didnt like the ideology of center, and npd looks like kids having nothing in the chest, but i say that cuz i didn’t really know good the deputies of NPD

  79. The liberal don’t have the vote splitting of the past and are so out of touch with canadians. Then ndp and greens can say whatever they want. Cut that liberal left pie up into 3 even pieces, go Harper!

  80. conservative or liberal we must all agree this will be the toughest decision the voters will make for a long time also what about ndp lets give them a shot i know their right wing, but the librals arn’t looking good and the conservatives seem very stupid

  81. i am librel and although i believe in his ethics it is unwise to propose a sudden raise in taxes and a carbon tax. the voters are not happy,b ut dion is to stupid to do anything. I want a librel government but not a dion government.

  82. No more Frenchmen in Ottawa.

    Liberals = 2 Billion failed Gun Registry

    Liberals = Kill the GST/NOT

    Liberals = Dominance in Ottawa too long.

    Liberals = Stephane Dion, the guy talks like a Little Boy.

    Harper need a Majority, Ontario, stop for once voting Liberal!

  83. Dion is already dead in Quebec, and his Green Shit Plan (I thought of that name first) is about to sink him across the board.

    The Anglophobic Bloc will be forced to give a raison d’etre after Harper takes 10-15 seats away from them, giving the Cons. at least a 20 seat majority.

    The Greens and Deeps will make small but insignificant gains in parts of the Maritimes, Toronto, and (of course)the Left Coast, at the expense of the Grits’ left wing.

    People always vote with their wallets.

  84. This ineffectual little boob has got to be kidding with this “Green Shift” horseshit! It’s nothing more than an old fashion shell game designed to prey on guilt ridden maroons who buy into the total crock that is global warming

  85. Let me add more:

    Harper today announced his tough on crime agenda to include environmental crimes as well, which includes environmental stewardship and conservation, increasing regulation and inspection of industries, hiring more environmental prosecutors, and increasing penalties for said crimes ($6 million fine for companies, $1 million for individuals).

    And where was Dion when he could have done something like this as enviro minister? Now he thinks his Green Shift is all that? Pathetic!

  86. Fuck yes. Go Liberals, their platform looks pritty solid. I think the only problem is his french accent but i can guarantee that Stephen Harper probually sounds just as bad to the french. I voted for the conservative party last election but iam definatly leaning to the liberals now. Iam gona see him give a speech at the University of British Columbia and if he can sell his parties mandate to me. He has got my vote.

  87. The environment is the least of our worries! Get the facts…do the math…the emissions that the ordinary Canadian can do anything about is only 0.19% of the total worlds output! That’s right…zero point one nine percent! The Green Shaft is exactly that!

  88. Is there any Canadian out there that is just plain STUPID ENOUGH to actually vote for this Dion loser in the next election and also think that by giving the Lieberals more money will help fix the environment????

    Apparently there is, because i have a strange feeling that the next government will be run by the Lieberals…….AGAIN!!…WHICH MEANS MORE TAXES, MORE SCANDALS, AND MORE LIES!!! and it also means less money in our own pockets to support ourselves and our families…

  89. Liberals are starving people
    Liberals have carbon tax and cap and trade tax and will increase the GST.
    Liberals will make you lose your jobs
    Liberals will destroy your family
    Liberals want your money for their friends.
    Liberals will steal again.
    Liberals dont care about you
    Liberals have off shore bank accounts that are drying up
    Liberals need your money.
    Liberals will make a new sponsorship scandal called a carbon tax
    Liberals will try to fool you again because they know you are fools.

  90. doomword, thats because a lot of people dont think goblal warming exists. and enough with the low taxes bullshit, i am a student and it doesnt work for my benefit, so im not voting conservative, period. its just another scheme for big bussiness to get richer. fuck that.

  91. I agree! I can vote for a lying party that said they recognized a problem and did not do anything about it or a party that has shown real leadership in fighting pollution. If you’re an environmentalist like me you’ll vote for Stephen Harper! (Such an easy choice.)

  92. lol and first of all the mission if afghanistan, we just went in as peacekeepers as first, it wasnt until harper that we actually started fighting over there, I mean i still suport the mission as it was on the request of the afghan government to fight to taliban and it is a NATO mission authorized by the UN .

  93. lol cuz im sure the same people who fuck up in the past are the same as today. and i wonder what the hell is harper even doing regarding the enviroment, oh yeah according to him the artic isnt melting. lol tax on diesel my ass, how on earth is that gonna help anybody.

  94. If you haven’t noticed, Harper has a minority in the house; therefore, lie-berals supported these dates. If you are naive enough to believe the “corruption boys” (the lie-beral party) have cleaned up their act, you are wrong. Just check out Volpe’s little dirt during the leadership contest and how virtually none of the other candidates said anything. My god, when will lie-berals think of Canada first, their party second?

  95. Sorry but Harper never lied about bringing the troops home. The first time he promised to bring the troops home was this spring when he struck a compromise with Dion who originally demanded the mission end in 2009, then agreed with Harper on a 2011 withdrawal date.

    For some reason the media went nuts when Harper repeated this commitment during the election, but its not new, and its not a lie. The change was big news in February, and since then 2011 has been the end date.

  96. if you haven’t noticed dion wants to bring in anouther tax. once they are brought in they are not reverseable, and once implemented can and will be abused by polititians. say no to dion and his carbon tax PERIOD

  97. if you havent noticed, harper has lied about when he would be bringing our troops home, delaying that date for several years. if you think they are trying to ”clean up”, youre wrong. if you are naive enough to believe that politicians like stephen harper and others are not crooks, you are missing the larger issues in this election.

  98. I agree with you…it is disgusting that the lie-berals started this war and the Conservatives have to clean it up!! Even Chreiten said so in his book.
    Time to get the lie-beral corruption boys as far for gov’t as possible!
    Who could disagree? Like you, I am still wondering…

  99. Thank you Alive4Metal..we did open our minds…it seems that the corruption party (the lie-berals) opened our wallets….lolol.
    When do you think they will pay back the $40million they owe to Cdns?….just wondering…

  100. He also mentioned eliminating poverty in Canada. The liberals already made that promise to eliminate poverty in 10 years. They were in power for 13 years and never did a thing.
    Dion is just full of buzz words that sound nice to the ears. He’s really full of hot air.
    Talents and skills .. what a joke.
    When the polluters pay, they will increase the price of their good and services to pass it down to the consumer plus GST. So any tax cuts will not be helpful on income tax.

  101. Shifting taxes from one place to another is basically stealing more from people who make more than 45K a year and move it to another sector to create “greener things”. During the shift of the taxes, we expect some elite Liberal friends to STEAL some of it in administrative charges.

    The rest will go to probably create some more inefficient and useless government jobs in which the workers become unionized and don’t do a thing to help the environment. The middle class is screwed with this guy.

  102. This clown Dion doesn’t know what he is talking about. The Canadian dollar did not go up if you compare it to the Euro and other currencies. It is the same. The US dollar is what dropped. Canadians are not productive enough for the dollar to go up.

  103. ha ha ha

    This guy is retarded. He can’t speak, can’t communicate and will be kicked off the Liberal team as soon as the election is over.

    This election is really a Liberal Leadership Convention, where they can toss this loser. The side benefit is that Harper gets a majority.

    This guy sucks!!!

  104. ummm no…i was just curious…Im not sure why he would do that but nevertheless i dont really know him so i couldnt say anything…
    Anyways PM’s are fine, the only problem is like I said I am busy so it will be a couple times a week type thing…Im out for now but we ll start it tomorrow..tty then…

  105. I think PM’s don’t have word limits.

    Is this age question one of these stupid things that your idiotic Liberal friend Gillhollee does? They accused me of being someone I’m not (PhilipJFry72), and started calling me nasty names like “sockpuppet” or saying crap like I served 9 years in the army and boy scouts don’t count. If you’re going to act like that creep Gillhollee, I will block you right now. I have no patience for that crap.

    But if you really want to see my age, visit my profile.

  106. I’m game if only you’ll address at least some other points. Again, this debate alone you’ve shown that all you can do is spit out Dion’s speech word for word. That’s what I meant by propaganda.

    I don’t want to do it on this board because this is for the Green Shift only. Maybe personal messages or on our message boards. Please show me the Nick from the Senate debate, the one that is constructive (albeit a bit naive) instead of partisan and irrational, and I promise I’ll treat you differently.

  107. I turned to election promises because we can look at each of the parties proposals and discuss them…thats what im saying…you’re saying that I am spitting out Liberal propoganda but this way I have to examine the other policies with you…did u want to do that?

  108. I have no idea how this got onto election promises. My entire premise is that you didn’t look outside the box, and that you must view things from another perspective, or opposite perspectives, in order to understand an issue.

    My project is on Sask’s role at the Council of the Federation. It was a simulation where my group was Sask presenting our province to the council and the press. Our goals were to discuss equalization and health care, and any other relevant progress our province has made.

  109. My impression was that you did some sort of project with the environmental progress in Saskatchewan, thats what I dont have time for…
    What Liberal propoganda are you talking about?
    Anyways lets start a discussion about election promises…that should be a good starting ground…we can go day-by-day policy by policy (more or less)…hows that?
    I cant assure I will be on every day such as today (in fact I am quite sure that won’t happen) but I should be on here and there a few times a week…

  110. Had Calvert not been defeated (on the day I presented, no less!), we may be talking about something different. But instead of ripping our presentation to shreds and replacing Calvert with Wall, we presented both sides, making a very balanced argument and ended up getting an A, no less.

    It’s all about balance, Nick. You’re not balanced because you held on too tightly to your biases. You must try to accept other ideas even if they contradicted yours. That’s the only way you can learn here.

  111. And “playing the sponge” as you claimed also will not be adequate, as these findings only guide you closer to the truth. It will not lead you there unless you analyze critically, something you sorely lacked in this debate.

    For my project, my group saw that Calvert and Wall are similar but different in many ways. They both had a vision for Sask that were, in their minds, prosperous, but their methods to it are different.

  112. And there’s the problem. I’m telling you who the losers are, but all you do is blast me with Liberal propaganda. You haven’t considered any of the other people’s ideas, and have no logical counter against said ideas.

    And counter to your claim, you don’t need too much time to view them (I simply dont have the time to do such a thing). You just need to be aware of your surroundings and see what the world’s all about, and that includes viewing proposals and policies that you vehemently dislike.

  113. In the midst of my studies I simply dont have the time to do such a thing. I certainly would love to do it…if I have a chance to do it as part of my studies I certainly will but until then unfortunately I cannot. But I do examine other party policies and do agree with some of their proposals but I side with the Liberals because I agree with more of their policies than the other parties…
    If you want to go into your findings, I would like to see them and I can just play the sponge…

  114. And I’ve endorsed many of your Liberal-leaning ideas too. In the Senate debate, I agreed with you that term limits are good, and that parl. committees should be used to impeach a senator (even though I still think it’s impossible).

    But back then, you had logic and reason and was constructive (albeit a bit naive). Here, you’re nothing but a megaphone for Dion, offering no constructive thought or rebuttal to my ideas. That alone makes these debates different, and makes me treat you differently.

  115. We need to discuss these issues…certainly and they are important but I think the overall policy is positive and the parliamentary committees will have a hand in making sure interests are covered as best as possible…unfortunately you know that no economic policy is good for everyone…there are going to be losers in any approach…

  116. And you’re right that each person, group or province have biases, but you can’t claim one is more biased than the other, as you’ve implied by nailing Brad Wall but letting Dion off easy. That’s why we have this debate, because we want to clear up our biases.

    But that also means letting go of our own biases and looking outside the box. I saw the Calvert NDP platform, the Wall Sask Party platform, and many others. You haven’t shown me that you did, and that’s why this debate is a zero-sum game.

  117. Nobody is questioning your integrity here Nick. I’m questioning your debate style. If all you do is spit out everything Dion says, then it’s not really our debate.

    You need to understand why different people in Canada feel differently about this plan. This is what policy is about: how to make a set of ideas apply the best into a nation of different sections all with their own needs. You never even addressed that with facts, and that’s just not good enough for me.

  118. If Mike is ad hominem style, then you are the regurgitation style. Why I continue to claim you have no logic and resaon is because everything you say is a regurgitation of the Liberal platform. You never reached beyond that to see other views on the Green Shift.

    You never truly realized the real reason why certain people hate this plan. Layton may hate it because he feels the numbers are against the poor. The North may hate it because they can’t build infrastructure to cope…etc.

  119. I simply dont have the time to continue this discussion if it is not productive…I applaud your work…if you want to go back to policy you will see that I have endorsed many of Harper’s individual policies…until then I simply dont have the time to go defending my integrity all the time…no one that knows me thinks that I lack integrity…and I simply will not waste time establishing that…I would rather you realize that as we discuss more policy…
    Yours in a policy debate,

  120. In fact, you’re the one playing ostrich and digging your head in the sand. In the Sask issue alone, I transcended party lines and history to research an issue. For the COF presentation, I looked at Wall’s mandate, his predecessor Calvert’s (NDPer) mandate, Sask’s views on Martin AND Harper, the road Sask will take to its future, and challenges in said future. Not to mention plenty of non-partisan sources.

    Critical analysis means going outside your boundary, AKA outside of the Liberal mandate.

  121. But this debate is looking more and more like a zero-sum game, because all you do is hold onto your biases and refuse to accept any challenge.

    In fact, your defences against my challenges are regurgitated parts of Liberal speeches. “Green shift good for economy and environment,” “people must be ready for transition,” “NDP hate our plan because we stole their idea,” etc.

    This shows you are incapable of logic and reason, and are a Liberal a mouthpiece. It’s no longer a true debate anymore.

  122. It took some serious guts to make this proposal. In the long term it will give our economy an advantage and help our planet. If only so many Canadians weren’t so afraid of making a real change. I’ll be happy to take a bus or ride a bike any day.

  123. Oh boy…I have to laugh…the former lie-beral supporters have gone “underground” as they see the wave of Harper support against corrupt lib-eral gov’t…boy, are they ready to apologize? Just wondering….

  124. As if man…they make billions and billions of dollars every year! Did you see how high gas prices are, they’re riping us of. All the tax will do is make them lower their carbon emissions to make more money!!

  125. I hope you carbon tax supporters pay my carbon taxes.
    Isn’t this a tax on breathing.
    Wake up Canada! This is a typical divide and conquer strategy. Divide and Rule is being played all the time.

  126. Lie-berals (appropriate term, don’t you think) are shifting tax money to their friends. Think about our future with a non-corrupt party (unlike the lie-berals) with Mr. Harper in charge! Wow, makes one proud.

  127. Actually no…the money will go into David’s bank account while you scrimp, he will be living the good life. Dispite demand after demand from his audiences, he still won’t reveal his income from this environmental “kick”. What is he hiding??? Just wondering….

  128. Mon cher Stéphane,

    Tu as le vent dans les voiles, mais j’espère que tu ne seras premier ministre du Canada pour l’intérêt de tous les citoyens au pays.


  129. I do think. I do not want to be punished for being born in this century. Please tell me how throwing money at the ozone will help the environment. The money won’t even be used for its intended purpose. It will be used to fuel David Suzukis diesel guzzling enviro-bus.

  130. Listen, every party that came to power have had their scandals and corruption, it’s undenyable.
    I don’t believe that the liberals are perfect, heck, I’ve been against them for a long time!!
    I just think we ought to give a chance to a party who’s program is all pointed towards change and progress. And even if they don’t do as greet as they say they will, I think it’s a lot better than letting things the way they are: full investments in tar sands, none in environment and none in social services!

  131. Its a vote grab buddy. So has he told you how he is going to lower the price of other goods, thought not.

    Pretty tax man, thats all it is. Just like the report says.

    Also were is this tax money going?
    Paying of the federal liberal det?

  132. Maybe the poor countries can start by getting out of their own misery. And maybe if we show a bit of initiative and be world leaders, other countries will follow. That would be having a bit of sense and courage for once.

    Don’t you think colin890??

  133. So as someone born in an age where you need an automobile I am being punished by paying out the ass on greenhouse emmisions! What about the rest of the world? Are we to take up their cross as well? I know the poor countries aren’t going to do this.

  134. Can’t you open your eyes?
    This is the most innovative and revolutionary project a major party has brought up in the last 50 years!! Carbon tax isn’t going to put money in their pocktets; they are shifting taxes to the polluters instead of making people pay for them.
    And for the record, taxes are invested in society, not in deputes wallets!!

    Stop putting your heads in tar sands like Mr. Harper is doing at this very moment and try to think about our futur!!

  135. I understand that lie-beral supporters will do what Dion does in the House of Commons…abstain from voting!!! Afterall, if it is good for the non-leader…it is good for his followers…right? Just wondering….

  136. Actually, the word is from jouralists that Harper will out-debate Dion in both French and English! (Not bad for Harper only having learned French 3 years ago at 47!) Maybe Dion could demand a debate in Klingon…lolol

  137. I am a card carrying Conservative and I don’t trust Harper. I certainly don’t want him to have a majority. I haven’t studied Dion’s green shift plan yet but I won’t reject it out of hand as just another tax because Harper says so. The two biggest economic issues facing the planet are peak oil and global warming. So far Harper has done nothing to address the two greatest threats to the Canadian economy. I am not a Dion fan but if the polls out Harper at a majority I will vote Dion to offset it.

  138. Before you vote, ask yourself this question:
    do I want more money that i have worked very hard for to feed myself and my family or more money in Stephane Dion’s and his friend’s bank accounts?

  139. Liberals are starving people
    Liberals have carbon tax and cap and trade tax and will increase the GST.
    Liberals will make you lose your jobs
    Liberals will destroy your family
    Liberals want your money for their friends.
    Liberals will steal again.
    Liberals don’t care about you
    Liberals have off shore bank accounts that are drying up
    Liberals need your money.
    Liberals will make a new sponsorship scandal called a carbon tax
    Liberals will try to fool you again because they know you are fools.

  140. Dion doesn’t even know what his own policy stances are!! (How could you expect us to know.) Cry that the Green Shaft is revenue neutral, and then, magically, thrown a billion dollars at it and it is still neutral. My god…how do lib-eral supporters hide their embarassment with this guy? Just wondering…

  141. Today on Mike Duffy, former Liberal cabinet minister Jean Lapierre himself said that Dion’s deficit claims are weak, since Dion never considered that Harper collected less tax to begin with (2% GST slash and other cuts like income taxes).

    With less money in Ottawa, of course surpluses are smaller. But Harper still has a (smaller) surplus and increase spending on key areas like military, infrastructure, and yes the environment. If that’s not an insult to voters’ IQ, then I don’t know what is.

  142. This man could have the “ideas” (very debatable); however, it is results that count. This guy hide whenever action was required. Very simple question: Will he ever be a leader? Answer for Canada pleasssse, not the lie-berals!

  143. It’s an insult to my IQ when Dion walks around with his Green Shift claiming it’s revenue neutral (meaning he’ll give back every single cent he takes in), then tacks on $1 billion in tax cuts for rural people after they complained, and STILL claim it’s revenue neutral.

    And Dion still beats on that drum about revenue neutrality, and that he won’t put Canada into a deficit with it (all the while condemning Harper for doing that). How do any of these numbers logically add up?

  144. Excuse me? Dion not a weak leader? He was the environment minister during the Kyoto years and did nothing. Now we’re taking action for the first time and he responds by hammering us with a tax that hurts everyone. And you still say he’s a good leader?

    Moreover, the Liberals have 13 years to get it done. In 1994, a Chretien throne speech had “Greening the Economy” as a priority, but still nothing proceeded. If that’s not questionable leadership, then I don’t know what is.

  145. I don’t care if he spoke Mandarin…if he was the person who had the ideas I resonated with I would vote for him. It is great to have him speak both languages clearly but not a necessity in my books…
    This “knows how to lead” concept is nonsense…the idea that Mr Dion is a “weak leader” is a Conservative-perpetuated phenomenon that has no base…

  146. Maybe you don’t understand him…do you even know what his policy stances are? Be sure to know the vision of the leaders/parties before you vote, falling for the “lack of leadership” campaign that the Conservatives (and the Republicans in 2004) are running is an insult to your and all Canadians intelligence…
    I do hope you have examined Harper’s direction and are at peace with it-not simply voting for him because of his “great leadership” (that I do not notice to the slightest)

  147. How will paying a carbon tax lower pollution.
    All it is to shuffel paper work from those who pollute to those who don’t. And we would all pay more for everything. The money he promises in tax cuts would be worth nothing to what we are going to pay.

  148. Why would ANYONE vote for this clown, Dion. He can’t even speak english! Voting for him is just a waste of a perfectly good vote. Vote harper, at least you will get someone who actually knows what they’re doing and knows how to lead.

  149. I live in a household that is VERY environmentally conscious. I am paying 62% taxes for services that barely work. Why should I be so environmentally friendly when people in other households do absolutely nothing to decrease their footprint and they pay the same?

  150. Let’s see. Dion promises a “revenue neutral” tax scheme. The public screams at him of how they will be hurt. He replans the program on the back of an envelope, throws $1billion at his friends and again says it is revenue neutral. Has this guy lost it? Harper is right, this is a tax trick. As someone neutral, I don’t think Dion is worth the risk.

  151. Poor Danny, don’t worry, your fearless leader Dion plans to bend Alberta over the barrel and stick it to them hard. Their carbon tax bill will make Danny boys equalization payment look like a tip.

  152. Danny is a hot headed mongrel that gets off on picking fights, you have his spin on the deal. Equalization payments are something every province has to deal with, welcome to the mainland.

  153. might want to go easy on your premise above. Danny Williams was lying! Harper offered him a new deal or the old deal–Williams could choose. However, Williams wanted to play it to the hilt for political reasons.
    I have a question…Why would you vote for anybody who was part of a proven corrupt gov’t that stole your money? Easy question…let us see if you have an easy answer…just wondering…

  154. and this man says 7 cents on the liter is no big deal, he is increasing energy costs, we want more fuel so lower taxes, fuck the green way it will just tax our people, and create a mini communist government, Dion is a polluter he fly’s private plane that is worse than my pickup truck. Fuck liberals, they create fear of climate change!, so we pay money out to Dion and his cronies bank accounts. Dion is a bone head, this plan will put Canada is a depression. Dion’s pocket will gain not you!

  155. Might want to go easy on the “liberals will not follow through on their promises talk.”

    Anybody who is paying attention will tell you ask Danny Williams who follows promises and who don’t.

    After being told by Harper that he no longer needed Newfoundland to get a majority government and had no intention of keeping his election promises his own party members says he is a liar who breaks promises.

    Why would I vote for anybody who says one province doesn’t deserve the truth.

  156. We have a differant view on the environment then.

    I think going green is going green. Electric and ethanol.

    Curbing emissions isn’t hard at all and will give us a couple more years before we have to wear painters masks to breath like foreign countries.

    If you want to split hairs than you will find out one will be better than the other.

    But if you want to look at the big picture they are the same. Sell oil for profit and have no plans to switch back to ethanol or produce electric cars.

  157. This man is a lying crook using the green shift as a scapegoat to make u huge tax grab on the alberta oilsands. and fuck the west abd all of canada all over again. im only 19 and i can see this! Scrap every thought of a carbon tax!

  158. I have found the same reaction! Whenever I try to engage a Liberal in some rationalization of the political scene, they start the personal attacks. Are they so unsure of their POV that they can’t discuss this without emotion?

  159. Rural Ontario actually has some Conservative leanings, so that’s where most of the Green Shift opposition lies. Moreover, lots of suburban/semi-rural Ontarians are willing to go to Harper just to oppose said plan, so there is some hope for Harper there.

    As for the honesty issue, your guess is as good as mine. I already said that Dion is either dishonest or hypocritical, but no Liberal has responded without giving me personal attacks, so I don’t even know what to think about Dion anymore…

  160. “BIG trouble”…we can only hope!
    Ontarians have traditionally been so dulled to the lie-berals and voted for them like robots.
    How can we ensure that lie-berals are honest in the upcoming election?

  161. If it’s only that “simple,” LOL!

    Fact of the matter is, he’s either desparate and is making stuff up on the fly, or he’s hiding revenues from us. I recalled in one of my other comments, I wrote: “He’s either lying about being revenue neutral, or he’s a hypocrite for condemning Harper for nearing a deficit when he’ll guarantee us one.”

    And in case you’re wondering, even in Ontario the polls are against the Green Shift, especially in rural areas. Believe me, the guy is in BIG trouble!

  162. Interesting way to get lie-erals angry? Ask who has the better environmental record–Dion and his lie-berals or George Bush and the Republicians. Get ready for shouting, insults, red-faces as they know how the US outperformed Canada. Try it…it’s fun!

  163. Oh my, Ikcwu..can’t lie-beral supporters see the fool that Dion is? Yes, another flip-flop and he smiles and thinks about Stalin’s comment about, “the useful idiots”.
    Plain and simple, how about we all, “Stand up for Canada” and vote Conservative? Doesn’t this make it simple?

  164. Let me add to this:

    Today, Dion offered another $1 billion in tax cuts for the Green Shift, saying that it’ll help farmers and rural communities. But before election speculation, he said rural communities won’t be exempt, at least in terms of tax breaks.

    So he flip-flopped again, confusing the plan even more. And where did the $1 billion come from? If it’s truly revenue neutral, he should have nothing left to work with once the tax breaks are in. Makes us wonder what he’s really hiding…

  165. The problem with greenshift is its leadership. The liberal track record is very clear,they will not follow through on their promises. Harper is a man that makes things happen, he has a positive plan to HELP industry become better stewards of the environment. Canada can’t go back to the liberal 47 billion dollar per year deficit, Harper is a man who wants real change and provides real answers. Isn’t it clear Dion is trying to buy votes with money he plans to take from industry.

  166. I highly doubt the conservatives have done any better than the liberals on the environment.

    As far as I can tell we still use oil as a main fuel source.

    Going green is moving everything we can that can generate it’s own power to electric and using ethanol for planes, boats and recreational engines.

    No production electric cars means ten more years with oil burning cars. Ever wonder why the government is so quick to bail out Ford and GM? No electrics.

    They all plan on selling oil for profit.

  167. This guy is a scumbag, ask him why the environment levels were so bad when he was Environmen Minister!!! Yet, he has the balls to constantly tell everyone else how bad they are for the environment even though the Conservatives have made documented progress in this area!!!!!

  168. Likely, Harper and the Conservatives expected a lot more from Dion and the lie-berals (no game playing in committees, showing up for debates and votes, caring about Canada). Yes, Harper expected a lot more from the lie-berals….come to think about it…so did most Canadians a few years ago!

  169. The shift needs to recognize efforts by everyone, not just one province or industry, that helped save the planet. That’s why Harper’s plan is better, as he has targetted those deemed most polluting.

    Rather than hit everyone, the entrepreneur making this fuel won’t pay, and neither will the rest of us who rely on fuel to survive (esp. lower income people who can’t pay more). And the money goes into a green fund to make it affordable for everyone to go green. That’s what counts the most here.

  170. Moreover, the “armchair environmentalists” in Toronto and Montreal are rich enough to pay off the tax, then wave their fingers at our rancher friends who are too isolated/rural to get the appropriate infrastructure to make the shift.

    For example, there’s a company based in rural AB that uses leftover restaurant frying oil to make custom car fuel, but it’s not a gov’t job and requires individual effort. Under the shift, this entrepreneur is unlikely to be recognized because they’re from AB.

  171. The west has ALWAYS adopted environmentalism. In fact, the so-called redneck ranchers that people in Toronto and Montreal criticize are most sensitive to environmental degradation, so if anything they know more about the damage.

    But in AB, where the attitude is more of individualism (people do things on their own rather than rely on gov’t), the province will be hit because of its “redneck” status as oil country even as people took action. That’s not fair to those who worked hard for it.

  172. Each province can speak for their own needs, and don’t need Dion to act like big brother and tell them what to do. Centralized federalism is never a good idea because when it comes to provinces, one size NEVER fits all.

    As I said before, there will be winners and losers in each tax (they won’t pay equally), and it’s not fair for some to pay more, even if it means sending them 20 years back and in the red. The “big brother knows best” attitude is part of the reason why the plan is so resented.

  173. It should only be fair that each province makes their own plans to reduce emissions. AB has a model similar to Harper’s, where those companies exceeding a threshold must pay into a technology fund to build green technologies like clean coal, nuke, etc.

    Meanwhile, Sask and NS are both into carbon storage, with Sask wanting to get into biofuels because of their farmland. And NF also developed good hydro projects, which can offset the carbon emissions.

  174. Some parts of society can afford to make said shift. Places like Calgary have enough money from the oil patch to fund them a lifetime, that’s why they can make it.

    The tax will hit Calgary even though it made progress, and that’s unfair. The tax will also hit poorer places where oil and gas are the only things they can use to improve (Sask, NF, NS).

    Without the money, they can never go green. The tax breaks to them are insignificant compared to the amount they’ll lose due to the shift.

  175. But if there aren’t targets, then we can never hold Dion accountable to his actions. I agree that they can be harder to set, but that’s what you guys beat on when you signed Kyoto and Pablo Rodriguez passed that bill.

    But emissions can rise after the tax sets in and Dion can still say the economy is going green. That alone is totally against the shift. It’s no different than when he was the environment minister when emissions rose most dramatically. It simply doesn’t make sense.

  176. Im not saying we shouldn’t have targets. What I am saying is it is very difficult to set those targets…

    The Green Shift economic environment will see that it makes financial sense to move away from inefficient (as far as pollution) technologies for energy because that inefficiency will cost them, and their shift towards efficiency will be aided by tax cuts and credits (ie R&D).

  177. I am glad to see how some people have moved towards a greener lifestyle but you simply cant say “we cant make it a more societal shift because it wouldnt be fair for those who paid a bit more in the first place”…you simply cannot work on that premise, but I do understand what you are saying (additionally a lot of these people will likely welcome this societal shift).
    Indirect taxation is better for the economy and can raise the revenue necessary to satisfy the needs of the people.

  178. If Calgary has moved that far with their use of more efficient technologies (that is great!:D). I did not know about that and that just makes the argument better…Calgary and the West will adjust and come out just as strong or stronger economically then they are right now. If these industries have used these technologies they will not be as affected by the carbon tax because their use of fossil fuels will be limited.

  179. Actually he hasnt invited the opposition leaders to meet until early last week&he did not inform Mr Dion directly. Mr Dion heard about Mr Harper’s apparent desire to have a meeting through the media…
    Its really funny, I do know that the fixed election date legislation is more geared towards majority governments but to make a mockery of parliamentary procedures and then blame your games on a need to force an election when you want it?That sure defeats the purpose of the fixed election date!

  180. Yes Ikcwu you have caught nickgibson1 in a “hipocracy move” or “lie-eral move” as most now call it. Here we have Dion dancing around saying, “No one knows Harper’s agenda”–yet; Harper has been inviting Dion for the last 6wks to discuss the agenda and Dion is, “too busy”. God!!! This can’t get much better! What fools these lie-berals be!

  181. Yeah, Dion will be history after this incredibly stupid carbon tax proposal. The Cons are just sitting back and letting the Libs self destruct. The Cons however have a carbon tax proposal of their own. They`re smart enough to keep quiet about it until after they`re elected. Their plan states that ” Some industrial sectors, particularly those that are more carbon intensive, will be more affected than others.” Geez I hate politicians, Libs, Cons, NDP, they`re all BUMS.

  182. Harper’s government recently decided to scrap the ecoAUTO Rebate Program citing that it was too complicated to monitor, and was an administrative nightmare. How then will he handle a cap-and-trade system?

  183. Canada should introduce a carbon tax as a simpler and less rort-prone system, and invest the proceeds in the development of new technology.

    Professor Jeffrey Sachs one of the world’s leading economists says about cap and trade systems, “It’s such a mess administratively. It covers only a fraction of what needs to be covered. It’s hard to implement. It’s hard to monitor. It’s not transparent, it’s highly manipulative – which is why the banks love it.

  184. The national cap-and-trade system favoured by Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government unfortunately refuses to impose the hard caps necessary to make cap-and-trade work. While Harper talks vaguely about cap-and-trade without real caps, Dion’s approach is the more serious of the two.

  185. It is sometimes assumed that a carbon tax is for consumers (gasoline, home heating fuel) and
    cap-and-trade is for industry. That’s not necessarily the case. British Columbia recently
    announced a carbon tax on nearly all emissions from burning fossil fuels. As of July 2008, the
    BC tax will apply to 70% of the province’s total greenhouse gas pollution, including emissions
    from industrial facilities, buildings, homes, cars and trucks.

  186. Cap-and-trade also requires
    the establishment of an emissions trading market. The federal government currently has far
    greater capacity for, and experience with, taxation than it does with large-scale regulation of

  187. A carbon tax also has one key advantage: it is easier and quicker for governments to implement.
    A carbon tax can be very simple, can rely on existing administrative structures for taxing fuels
    and can therefore be implemented in just a few months. In theory, the same applies to cap-and-
    trade systems, but in practice they tend to be much more complex, to be susceptible to lobbying
    and to require much more time to develop the necessary regulations.

  188. Calgary has wind-powered trains, city vehicles converted into hybrids, and street lights using efficiency bulbs. Not to mention that a town just south of it (Okotoks) uses solar energy for its suburbs, and talks have been in place for a regional rapid transit.

    Calgary as a city has met Kyoto, the first in Canada to do so, sooner than so-called green centres like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. But the tax will hit Calgary the same, and it’s unfair to Calgarians who worked so hard to do it.

  189. It’s not fair for those who already voluntarily went green. You’re right, income tax is paid by citizens for services they need. That’s the entire reason for it in the first place. Rich or poor, you need to see doctors, you need to send kids to school, you need traffic lights to help you cross the street, etc.

    But lots of people and even cities already went green and it’s not fair that they get hit with it just because. Believe it or not, Calgary (so-called redneck capital) is a good example.

  190. Also, Dion’s own mandate has him using the money collected here to fund social programs or whatsover. So he’s basically running a shoe-string budget, because his funds are limited by his promise of revenue neutrality.

    Should his plans run overpriced (And it happens in gov’t bureaucracy) we’ll plunge into the red. So he’s either lying when he said it’s revenue neutral, or he’s a hypocrite for condemning Harper for nearing a deficit when he goes into one himself. Neither one bodes well for him.

  191. But that’s the point: Harper is letting the economy keep running while hammering those who still flount the rules. Moreover, the money collected from payments into that fund will let technology and research take over, making it cheaper for all of us to go green.

    Harper also doesn’t need to offer tax cuts because no direct taxation will go to consumers. There will be slight rises in prices, but nowhere near the Liberals when this carbon tax goes through.

  192. The economy should have gone green, but the Liberals (when they were in power) never made this a priority, even as Chretien spoke of it (on a Throne Speech) before signing Kyoto.

    They should have cut taxes and promoted technology development when the books were balanced, but Chretien focused on Adscam and cut funding for almost everything, including energy efficiency.

    Now Dion suddenly hammers us claiming it’ll work. It’s too sudden and people can’t adjust in time. We’ll only get killed.

  193. If you’re truly a Liberal supporter, then you’ve just been caught double-speaking. You guys always rant about how desparate we are for progress on this issue, but now you’re saying that we shouldn’t have targets and let emissions fluctuate (or rise).

    All this talk about competetiveness is also contradictory, because it’s the economy that drives the technologies, and right now there is not incentive for them to develop this energy efficiency faster.

  194. Moreover, those economies starting to turn around (Sask, NF, NS) are resource based, and with this carbon tax they will never reach have status. This will send their economies 20 years back and in the red.

    The provinces will protect their economies and won’t allow Dion to do that. That’s why Brad Wall refused to endorse the plan, and Danny Williams preferred cap and trade because NF has hydro AND oil. Both know their provinces’ strengths, and both are more credible on this issue than Dion.

  195. I’ll address this point along with the last point in one shot, since it serves the purpose best.

    Rural and less developed areas will be hardest hit because they have no alternatives and don’t have the infrastructure to get said alternatives. Recently, Nova Scotia and the nothern premiers all disagreed with the plan, saying it’s not realistic for them to make the switch quick enough. That means they’ll get hamemred and their people will pay high.

  196. if that was to me, then what is bad about it is it is a useless tax and if they wanna make a tax to equalize wealth which i think is a bad idea (why should i work when i am getting a free cheque?) they should rename it from Carbon Tax because that is just retarded. Taxing me on everything, because everything emits carbon dioxide (transportation) and i am not entirely sure if it is legal to tax on fresh produce and meat… i know currently they do not… at least not GST (i live in AB no PST)

  197. Thank you for the upload. How will this effect middle/lower class people? Why has the answer to this question been riddled? Tax cut, how much? I agree entirely with a ‘tap’ on pollution, but not at the cost of people with so very little already. What seems like a dollar to the rich, is like a hundred to the poor. This new tax will effect the price of everything else too. This is a capricious matter and will certainly cause allot of undesired situations. The best to you all, peace.

  198. Ontario will not be let off. It has some of the most polluting industrial areas in the country. PQ is has minimal emissions because it mainly depends on hydro-electricity for power which has minimal emissions.
    Some provinces are ahead of others in terms of emissions so their adjustments will be easier but everyone will have the same rules to work with.Some provinces(such as BC, Ontario&PQ) may have additional plans with carbon taxes/tax cuts, and cap&trade systems; but that is their decision.

  199. There will be no side deals in the sense that everyone will be affected the same from the Green Shift. As far as the BC goes, there will be talks and Mr Dion has mentioned that. Likely what will happen is the Green Shift will be combined with the BC Plan to make a hybrid of sorts; where the Green Shift Plan will be the main plan and the BC Plan will fill in anything they have that the Green Shift doesn’t (ie a gas tax). So it wouldn’t be double taxation/double tax cuts.

  200. You are right, targets are missing from the Green Shift.The reason for that is simple, it is nearly impossible to create targets because there are several ways industry can adjust and different timelines for those adjustments.However,it is quite elementary that a carbon tax will cut emissions because different industries create different levels of emissions but will receive the same tax cuts; leaving some with more money to use (to stablize prices,or to improve efficiency)

  201. Because this plan will shift our economy away from fossil fuels to the renewable industry (who will pay minimal taxes) and will boom becoming more competitive which will drive down prices. Currently, they simply cannot compete with fossil fuels because contrary to what many think, fossil fuels are still cheap.

  202. If I were to start making more money I would pay more income tax; that is the reality. I like this plan in that I can reduce my carbon footprint and it will make sense financially. Not only will green technology boom, their competitiveness will grow and drive down costs (as they will pay minimal carbon taxes)…and that is where the consumers will make their shift and industry will have to follow suit if they havent already.

  203. Indirect taxation is what economists have been calling on for years. They believe that more indirect taxation (ie carbon tax) is desirable as opposed to direct taxation (ie income tax). Although the Green Shift does not completely eliminate income tax, it does shift tax burden away from investment, income and innovation and puts it on pollution. It is a fairer and more sensible direction.

  204. Harper’s plan allows overall emissions to rise if output rises…the Green Shift Plan acts as a disincentive for industry, while offering offsetting income tax cuts to finance their switch to more efficient means allowing the market to work its magic…
    There will be an upward pressure on prices, but that is also the case with Mr Harper’s intensity-target plan, except Mr Harper does not have offsetting tax cuts and credits to relieve some of the burden.

  205. Secondly, Mr Dion was mostly rejecting a plan that involved a solitary carbon tax (without offsetting tax cuts and credits within). He was open to feedback from his counterparts and has come up with a credible plan.

  206. You must examine the whole plan before you assert that rural and lower income ppl will get hammered.There are specific tax cuts and credits in the plan that target low income and rural Canadians.
    Yes Mr Dion did reject a Carbon Tax in 2006, but the other leadership contenders endorsed a plan involving a carbon tax.

  207. tehcnically alberta is not the sole engine (newfies actually get to go drill their own oil in newfoundland …well offshore…) but it is a large contributer…

    this carbon tax is ridiculous though… heres how it works…

    you buy stuff and get carbon taxed…if you make under a certain amount of money you get a tax credit… sounds a bit like GST to me…

  208. But given that Alberta’s oil industry is the sole engine for Canada’s economy, how does Dion expects Canada to stay out of the red? He shouldn’t accuse Cons of pushing Canada near deficit when he’ll guarantee a deficit.

    Harper’s plan has the money cycling within the environmental field, with the “tax” on those not meeting guidelines used to fund research that benefits everyone. Dion’s plan will harm everyone and show little to no results. If that’s not a bad plan, then I don’t know what is.

  209. And this notion of revenue neutral is also questionable. In any tax, there will be winners and losers. One group benefits at the expense of another group.

    I agree that the polluters should pay, and that the oil companies should incerase efficiency and lower emissions, but that’s Harper’s plan. He’ll make those not meeting guidelines pay into a technology fund.

    Dion insisted on spreading the cost to consumers, most of which are environmentally responsible. Now that’s unfair.

  210. Moreover, there is zero guarantee or target whatsoever in the plan for reducing GHG’s, meaning Dion isn’t obligated to cut the harmful stuff. If anything, he can say he kept his promise even as GHG’s continue soaring.

    His claim is that people will turn to renewables and energy efficiency products, but there isn’t one single alternative sold cheaply at all. So how does he expect us to make the change without hacking our wallets? Pretty questionable if you ask me.

  211. Also, it’ll affect provinces disproportionately. AB, Sask and NF are resource based, meaning they pay more. BC already has a carbon tax, so they pay twice.

    Sask and NF are just getting out of have-not status, so with this plan, it’ll send their economies back 20 years. And Dion also claimed he won’t make side deals, so BC will be hit twice as hard. Yet cars and such won’t be taxed, meaning Ontario and Quebec, with more cars, will get off easy.

    I don’t know if there’s any fairness in that.

  212. This entire plan is questionable to begin with. At a time when gas taxes are so high, there’s no way Canadians can get through unscathed. Moreover, Dion’s first speech as leader (in Alberta) was to not tax carbon, citing bad policy. Why did he change his mind with no justification whatsover?

    It’s also going to affect everyone and everything, and that means rural and lower income people will get hammered due to their limited resources. So what type of societal justice will be achieved here?

  213. Let me this point out:

    The in and out scheme, Harper and the Cons want answers to their issues. That’s why they offered to open their books as long as all parties do it. If their records are the same, then they’re all innocent or they’re all guilty. There should only be one standard for all.

    The Cadman case, the RCMP already cleared them and forensic evidence showed no wrongdoing. In that case, Dion should apologize. In fact, you’re the one who said we get past Adscam. So why not Cadman?

  214. I need big govermnent taxing me on a commodity I`m already paying a ton of taxes on. Where`s yer head Dion? Don`t talk taxes pre election. Promise NOT to tax ( like the Cons did regarding Income Trusts).When elected you come up with a “Tax Fairness Plan”, and then… tax Income Trusts, cause there was “Tax leakage”. Stephan, I already have a choice. I can buy premium gas at the pump, cleans my engine AND reduces emissions.I don`t though. I can`t afford it. Get your head outta yer ass

  215. However they are in permanent damage control in response to their lack of a credible environmental plan, economic plan and the seemingly endless list of scandal (from a party who campaigned on accountability and transparency…that has to be embarrassing eh?)
    The bottom line is Mr Harper is right,Parliament is damaged.The only way to fix it would be to bring in a new Liberal government.

  216. If I were the Conservatives I would want to clear the air as soon as possible and not pull these shenanigans if I were innocent…Politically that would be the smartest thing to do too…

  217. Liberals making a mockery of the committee hearings?The Conservatives continue to try to silence their witnesses than later advise them to not show up…then some show up on the wrong day and insist to be heard when they know the committee is booked up, make a scene and have to be escorted out of the committee room.
    Mr Dion is not throwing a temper tantrum…all he has said is that Mr Harper is using the libel suit to avoid debate on the Cadman case in the House…

  218. Yes, if the lie-berals really thought there was something here, why would they make a mockery out of the committee hearings? Just let them proceed and no grandstanding. Shows the lie-berals are terrified there is nothing. Just like the non-leader, Dion being sued by Harper and Dion throwing a temper tantum. If he is convinced of his facts, Dion should welcome a court case (rather than running from one). Again, is there no end to lie-beral hipocracy?

  219. The public want answers in the ‘in and out’ scheme too…but the Conservatives are playing games because they have something to hid. If they didnt than why would they be making a mockery of the ethics committee?…

  220. Clearly the country is more important to me. Since you continue with this dead question I will answer this for the last time. I love this country and believe that its current direction is not the right path. I believe that the Liberal vision is the right path for Canada so thats why my love of this country and my affiliation with the Liberals are converging interests.
    I dont expect you to understand that though;after all your argument is dead so desperate times will call for desperate measures.

  221. Yes, you cannot defend voting for the corruption boys–that is okay–I only wish you loved Canada as much as you love the lie-berals.
    The lie-berals had no choice. The public was screaming for an inquiry and, obviously, Martin didn’t feel he could route out the corruption in his own party. Says a lot, doesn’t it?

  222. Won’t answer again…what is wrong with you? All it takes is “Yes” or “No”–let us try one more time…Which is personally more important to you…Canada or the lie-beral party….should be easy…why is it so difficult for you?

  223. I know who I am hiring and I am confident in their abilities to run this country successfully or else they would not have my support,thats pretty self-explanatory if you read every other post that I have written.
    Those responsible have paid the price for the sponsorship scandal and Mr Gomery’s commission is complete.Funny,the Liberals called their inquiry&now with the ‘in and out scheme’ the Conservatives continue to play games in the ethics committee?Seems like they have something to hide,no?

  224. Something great? I must be missing something because I do not associate much ‘greatness’ with this Conservative Government…
    I will answer your question point blank once again like I have every other time…I care for this country and I believe that the success of this country depends on the Liberal vison…as such my support of the party and the country are converging interests…

  225. One hates to trash something that is great and replace it with a flip-flopper who cannot find the door without Liz May showing him the way. Why would anyone do that unless they cared more for their party than the country. Oh yes, you refused to answer that question, didn’t you? Just wondering…

  226. Well since Dion, Dryden, and others all were in gov’t during the “stench of lie-beral corruption” you are hiring the same lie-berals. I’ll say that if they paid back the $40million that would indicate their sincerity. Any word on that repayment? Just wondering…

  227. Poor, poor nickgibson1…dreaming that lie-berals will somehow become truthful. I was once like you…happy and ignoring the facts. Perhaps you can end up better than me in realizing the corruption of the lie-beral party before you hit 30. Worthwhile goal, won’t you say?…

  228. Yes, lie-berals narrow minded mandate–ensure that they are entitled to their entitlements….lolol.
    If someone stole your money–would you hire them again? (Your credibility is again on the line–if you have any credibility left after your continuing non-answers.)

  229. hahahaha i never answer yours even though I address every one of your points everytime you post something…
    Young and dreamy…funny i was thinking that you were old and forgetful…i suppose i better keep my mind sharp throughout my years…i wouldnt want to end up in your situation…

  230. Came within a hair of losing the country? What did you want the federal government to do, give in to every demand of separatists in PQ…in retrospect, there is very little I would change…
    Conversely, I am not willing to give this current Conservative government another chance to continue their narrow minded mandate…

  231. Took forever to get it out of you!!! The lie-berals came within a hair of losing the country due to their incompetence…are you willing to take the chance again with these fools?

  232. Interesting…these people that have examined this discussion…are they the same people you, “walked around, talked to them, explained the situation, they were polite, asked questions…” oh, this does get rich! A constructive discussion involves 2 parties willing to answer questions…you never answer mine, obviously afraid your poor thin arguement will come falling down. Don’t worry–you’ll see the light as the years go by…oh to be young again and dreamy……

  233. You also have to remember that Mr Harper’s regulation/intensity plan theoretically puts a price on carbon too. The only problem is he does not couple this with appropriate tax cuts to offset the upward trend in the price of goods…First his plan is rejected by environmentalists and now more and economists reject his approach.Conservatives have even admitted that their plan may “cause an upward trend in the price of goods”
    Where are the appropriate tax cuts?The GST is certainly not one of them.

  234. It wont send the oil industry into problems…their massive profits will save them. They will be forced to spend some money on R&D to improve their emissions output to reduce their taxes…and they get some help to do that in the form of tax cuts…what you are missing is the emergence of the green sector, with this sort of economic environment they will prosper and the economy will go with it…

  235. Not all that hard really…it is tax policy we already have an established bureaucratic division in government for such a task. You are right, the prediction will be hard thats why there is a initial buffer of more tax cuts to ensure things don’t go over board…if the carbon tax revenue goes above the tax cuts it will simply be paid back through additional tax cuts (kind of like your income tax return every year-pay too much income tax you get a return).

  236. And his plan to put a price on carbon will send the Canadian oil industry, which is the only thing preventing this country from falling into a recession along with the Americans, back into the dark ages of the Trudeau era. By stealing money from Alberta and Saskatchewan, Dion will not only be ripping the heart out of the Canadian economy, he will be risking the unity of this country.

  237. It doesn’t matter how even the taxation is, it’s the fact we will have a hike in prices for anything which sees the inside of an airplane, train or truck (i.e., EVERYTHING), and it is virtually impossible to calculate the economics of how many credits and tax cuts the government would have to shell out for this to stay revenue neutral. Not to mention the millions of dollars required to establish a new bureaucracy to oversee the management of carbon emmissions and give away these hand outs.

  238. You have failed to recognize despite my clear explanation that there is no indication that any Conservative policies have driven down the separatist numbers as they have been steadily declining for several years now…
    Class? I have been nothing but respectful during the full discussion here and despite that you attack my integrity with nonsense and ridiculous statements.Before you go out asking for me to ‘show some class’ you would be best served to take your own advice and stop the hypocrisy.

  239. The Liberals were in power during the ’95 referendum. Congratulations theres the answer you already have got from me…there was no need to mention it…what the premiss of your argument leaned on was the fact that the Liberals ‘almost lost the country’ and now the Conservatives have the lowest separatist numbers since then.

  240. If you examine it, you will realize that the plan will affect the country relatively evenly as it is consumption taxation (indirect taxation)…
    Yes Alberta and Ontario may have among the highest individual polluters but not all of their business is done in-province…so costs will be assumed throughout the country and tax cuts and credits will also be felt throughout the country…

  241. You go on thinking that there my friend…those who have examined this discussion have commented that your lack of commitment to a constructive discussion and utter ignorance of legitimate evidence and points…
    These are ppl I cannot agree with when we go to order take out, let alone politics…
    Its gotta be sad to not have the capacity to conduct such a discussion…Mais, c’est la vie n’est-ce pas?

  242. Mr. Never-Answer-A-Question…why do you keep changing the subject when you realize you are in a hole? Goodness! Did you answer the question about which party almost lost the country? Show a little class, my young friend and simply answer the question. (Or admit you cannot defend–no shame–lie-berals have been trying for years.)

  243. Oh, so funny…I love it when a “smackdown” occurs—you are left looking so ridiculous! “insignificant points” then how do you remember anything Dions says?
    Can’t answer the lib-eral vs Canada–so, lie-beral corruption was good for Canada? Oh god, I can’t be this good, you are so terrible at debating!!! lolol

  244. Terrified to answer what? I have never been terrified to answer any of your questions…if I was I would have ended this discussion a while ago…
    Apparently you are terrified to accept the truth…

  245. I have already answered your question. There is no indication that the separatism numbers at their lowest point have anything to do with the Conservatives…
    Conversely, if the Conservatives kept power in ’93, they would have likely taken the same referendum route…
    Give me evidence of specific policies that would correlate the Conservatives to the low separtism number in Quebec right now…

  246. Ok then…I address every single point you ever bring up…
    If you answered my point from economists what was it? You will have to remind me because insignificant points are hard to remember…
    As for your question, in my mind they are converging interests!

  247. Again, stick to the facts. Who almost lost the country in the referendum? (Please answer this specific question.) Which federal party has achieved the lowest support for separation in a decade? (Again, please answer this specific question.) Credibility time, my uninformed and mislead friend!

  248. Sadly, your dignity was lost a long time ago, my friend. I answered your post about your PEI friend (a hot-bed of research in this country). I find it so funny you ignore my points and attempt to defend the sad continuing story of the once proud lie-beral party. Easy question, which is more important to you, Canada or the lie-berals?

  249. Nick it is good to see that people like you and I and others who understand and believe in the Green Shift are the kinds of people who know who we are and what we believe, unlike guys like mikefastener who mindlessly sing from the Harper songbbook and do what they are told.
    When it comes to the Conservative we know what they are and who they believe.

  250. I just noticed a bit of a typo on my last post.

    I wrote:
    “The Harper Gang want to keep Canadians scared and uninformed. It is not to see Stephane Dion has more respect for Canadians and for the planet.”

    It is supposed to read “It is NICE to see Spethane Dion has more respect for Canadians and for the planet.

  251. Separatist numbers have been on the decline since the mid-90’s and there is no indication that they have decreased more as a result of the Conservative government;
    Further,I think you will remember that Mr Mulroney’s majority government fell into shambles because it was made up of a west-east pact-the westerners made the reform party and the easterners made the Bloc Quebecois&these new parties drew most of their members from the Conservatives-
    Hence their decimation in the 93 election (2 seats)

  252. Lets go back to your thought that I was “ignoring” your points…funny you ignored my points from an economist at the University of PEI and now you ignore my quote from an economist from RAND stating the advantageous nature of indirect taxation versus direct taxation…
    Man its gotta suck when you have nothing else to go for…better quit now while you’re, ummm, well you’re not ahead at all but I would stop the free fall as soon as you can! Best to salvage the dignity you have remaining…

  253. I have read the quotes (I have read them before but I figured I would take a look again just to make sure for you;) )
    The quotes are not ones that say they are afraid of the plan at all…
    What the media jumped on was his terrible wording of his thoughts on the plan…
    He said the carbon tax would fund “social policies”…he later cleared up what he meant by saying the ‘social policies’ were the tax cuts in the plan…

  254. I ignore and ask for again? Ok then…if I really wanted to dismiss it I would have done that but the pure fact that I asked you again must make you a little sheepish…”maybe he is on to something…”

  255. Yes, I agree the lie-berals spread as much fear as they could to keep getting elected. Amazing, even with a minority Cons. gov’t we are so much further ahead. Lie-beral said only they could stop separatism in Quebec and they almost lost the country. Under Mr. Harper, separatism has almost disappeared.
    Do you think the lie-beral party will say they are sorry for their disgusting behaviour? Just wondering….

  256. I already gave you the name (which you ignore and now ask for again)…here it is, Ken Boshcoff, Liberal MP for Thunder Bay-Rainy River-Jul 12–check the lie-beral rag called the TO Star and tell me they twisted the words. Your very low credibility is on the line on this one…and the answer is….

  257. Love the video.

    I can’t understand why Conservatives would rather be ruled by fear than by facts. Rancorous rhetoric will never take the place of fact based discussion.

    The Harper Gang want to keep Canadians scared and uninformed. It is not to see Stephane Dion has more respect for Canadians and for the planet

  258. Well since you seemingly cannot swallow the realities of the plan when it comes from me maybe you will like to see this instead…

    “Indirect taxes encourage economic growth more than direct ones” RAND
    Senior Economist John Thissen
    states at a lecture presented at the macroeconomics seminar
    held at the International Centre for Policy Studies.
    Carbon taxes=indirect taxation
    income taxes=direct taxation
    Green Shift=cuts income taxes, introduces indirect taxation in the form of a carbon tax

  259. Please don’t keep ignoring the facts?…you’re responses are more and more hypocritical as the days go by…
    You give me their quotes…I ll tell you what they meant before their words were twisted to mold the Conservative attack campaign…

  260. Sorry–again, you are caught in your double-speak! Lie-beral caucus members are terrified of this crazy plan. Two have spoken out about why it has nothing to do with the environment. Please, please don’t keep ignoring the facts!

  261. “it is difficult to have targets”…isn’t this similar to, “Its not easy to set priorities”? I’m afraid my friend you are busted! No plan, no targets, no measure of success! (All common hallmarks of lie-beral initiatives.) Thanks for demonstrating it so well. (You did it far better than I could!)

  262. What you and the Conservatives are not understanding is that Mr Dion’s vision and plans for his government are intertwined. You cannot simply add them all up to get the grand total.Its forward thinking,that apparently you cannot understand.

  263. Continue with your rhetoric…I just can’t see what you don’t understand…Mr Dion has been clear, revenue neutral means that the Green Shift Plan will not raise any additional revenue for the government than it currently has. All revenue from the carbon tax will be returned through business and personal income tax cuts and credits…that clear enough?

  264. Sure I would. But he works with his Liberal caucus to make decisions, unlike the authoritarian Harper…Liberals support the Green Shift, and now he is going to the public at large to seek a mandate for the plan…

  265. These corporations will be able to finance their shift towards less emissions with their savings in income taxes…they can cut their own taxes by cutting emissions.That makes sense to me…environmental action that makes financial sense

  266. Mr Dion doesnt ‘refuse’ to answer. There is no specific answer. You simply cannot put a firm target on the emissions cut from carbon taxes. The plan will cut carbon emissions because it will make financial sense for corporations to do so. It is difficult to have targets because different industries will do it at different rates…

  267. Offsetting tax cuts? Dion will be sprinkling the money to get his votes…questions for you: Will it be revenue neutral for everyone? Who will lose? Who will gain? How much will greenhouse gases by reduced?
    Dion refuses to answer–why?
    Sorry, but, you are debating a losing cause!

  268. Again, not listening are you? Mr Dion will simply be taking money from taxpayers and using it to pay for his expensive promises (that will have little, if any, to do with the environment). Question: How is this like any other tax where lie-berals promise to spend it as fast as it comes in…ie. revenue neutral. This is true (and shallow) smoke and mirrors–I cannot believe you don’t understand this!

  269. I could take you through the Khadr case and show you what happened, starting with the basic facts. It is too difficult to keep it coherent posting here. It’s easier privately. Interested?

  270. Khadr will never face charges in Canada. The plaintiffs (the US government) are not going to fight a case in a Canadian court when they can fight it in a US court first. The events weren’t even on Canadian soil. Khadr would be released in Canada, he will never be charged here. Do you understand that?

  271. Lets also remember that I am 19…I was not very old to understand those situations when they happened…I would be calling for their repatriation as well if their case was the same…
    Mr Harper isn’t required to do anything. But he is required to stand up for Canadians abroad. Bringing him back to Canada doesn’t wipe the slate clean, he still has to face charges but with the mindset that he was a child soldier…

  272. The court was wrong. They have been wrong before.

    I could take you through this and show you what happened, starting with the basic facts. It is too difficult to keep it coherent posting here. It’s easier privately. Interested?

  273. You are the one lacking, Nick – you accept things that fit what you want to believe and ignore things that don’t. Bill Sampson was tortured and Zahre Kazemi was murdered while the Chretien/Martin liberals did nothing, yet you ignore that while railing against Harper for not getting Khadr back. It’s obvious you have no clue what has happened legally and why Harper isn’t required to ask for Khadr. You believe the media. Harper has to give the Americans an opportunity to give him a trial.

  274. I know it is not simply as it seems…but the fact that Supreme Court deemed it illegal (no matter how close) shows that there are problems…
    Like I have in my previous response, I cannot simply dismiss everything as coincidence. I know it is not cut and dry; that is a rarity in the world of international law/relations/domestic policy but this certainly leans considerably to the very suspect side.

  275. Based on the videos that have been released, based on the fact that both presidential candidates vow to close Gitmo and the fact that the Americans don’t have Gitmo on American soil…they escape the critical eye because they are in Cuba…
    I also add, why has every other Western country repatriated their nationals from Gitmo?
    All of that cannot just be simply coincidence…

  276. I do…and thats why im saying we have to be critical viewers. It is simply not realistic or practical for us to get our own news on everything…I don’t think the media is quite as ‘bad’ as you say they are but like i said viewers need to critically analyze what they hear/see/read, but that is seemingly lacking.

  277. For liberals its much easier to let the media filter it for you and do the thinking. That’s what you have done on Khadr. If you started with the known facts and worked outward and you’ll realize that Bush was right.

    Five idiots on the US court have turned the US constitution into toilet paper.

  278. Left winger enviro Nazis? Wow that’s pretty good…im eager to see what you can come up with next because certainly your argument has long died, you have to keep something going and that certainly is creative.
    If you look into it a bit closer,academia acknowledges climate change has happened for thousands of years but it is being accelerated by human activity (ie our linear consumption pattern).The debate is whether or not we have the ability to stop it.And the evidence is strong that we can.

  279. If you looked at the situation starting with facts instead of assumptions you would find out that the case is not as simple as the media would like you to believe. It only took one swing vote on the US supreme court to make everything the administration did illegal. It was a 5-4 vote. If the vote went the other way, it’s all legal.

  280. In the next breath you say that the reader is responsible for determining the bias. Your views on the Khadr situation are simply regurgitations of what the media has spoon-fed you. You haven’t worked through the situation to understand what has happened legally. You’ve accepted the knee-jerk premise and bias of the media. You accuse the Americans of torture based on what exactly?

  281. You keep saying this over and over Nick. You admit the media is biased while claiming to be objective, but then claim they perform a duty acting as a ‘filter’ between the government and the citizens. You trust the untrustworthy and the dishonest among them to filter the news for you. Can’t you see the problem with that?

  282. I bring it up because he campaigned against action for Climate Change and then put up a plan that has been rejected by every environmentalist that has analyzed it. Conservative insiders even admit that it will cause an upward trend in the price of goods…
    And where are the offsetting tax cuts?
    Where is your answer for that?You just must not be good at debating;)

  283. The other thing you must remember my friend is that Mr Dion is seeking a mandate for his plan, he has not received a mandate then changed his mind without appropriate consultation.

  284. He rejected non-offsetting carbon taxes. The Green Shift Plan is coupled with offsetting tax cuts and credits that makes it revenue neutral. And that is guaranteed because it will be law and will be annually audited by the Auditor General. There will not be any money coming from the Green Shift for Mr Dion’s plans…try again if you must…

  285. Caught you again!!! So, “lets bring up old stuff”–as if it was not part of the record of the disgusting lie-beral attack ads–yet, you bring up Harper’s supposedly non-support for climate change that is even older. God, I can’t be this good! (You must just be very bad at debating.)

  286. Oh, I’m sorry–like Mr. Dion and his utter, total rejection of carbon taxes as little as a year ago–and, now he wants them! Obviously, he has promised too much spending and is desperate to find a way to have us pay for his promises…how disgusting (and very flip-flopping).

  287. Your trust in the media is misplaced, Nick. People like Dan Rather proclaim they are after the truth, but only if the truth matches what they want it to be. Many in the media believe it is their responsibility to interpret the facts for the consumer, while claiming objectivity. This isn’t journalism. There is always a bias, they simply refuse to acknowledge it.

  288. Actually, “climate change” became the maypole socialists started dancing around when evidence showed that parts of the Earth were getting cooler (causing the “global warming” crowd untold grief). Now when when we get a rainy day, it is climate change. Waiting for the kids to say, “the dog ate my homework due to climate change”…lolol

  289. I just walked around my neighbourhood and talked to 61 households in the area. I explained to them the rising fear Cdns have if ever the corrupt lie-berals should again get into power. How lie-berals stole, lied and enjoyed their entitlements. I also explained how Dion was part of that gov’t. They were very interested, asked questions and thanked me for info and agreed Canada should come first. Wow–I got 100%–owe me an apology???lolol

  290. Of course Dion has moved on…he does not want to be reminded of a very shameful episode of his career when he did not speak up as other lie-berals did. Wow–does this man ever stop flip-flopping? He could apologize now–will he? Thank god the Conservatives are showing these “fact” ads so we Cdns will not be fooled again.

  291. “who does not stand up for the rights of Cdns” well you should be very angry at the lie-berals who also did not stand up for your friend at Gitmo…feeling at little foolish?
    “waters down environ. proposals” well you should be very angry at lie-berals who signed treaties and made the situation worse…feeling even more foolish? Just wondering….

  292. I should feel proud of someone who does not stand up for the rights of Canadians abroad, and waters down environmental proposals in front of world leaders? How could you be proud of that?

  293. Well Im sorry you don’t know these people but in my mind if they are receptive to the Plan I think it is significant. It is unfortunate that you are belittling the significance of the opinions of these people…for that you should apologize…
    If I see these successful business owners endorsing or being very receptive to a plan such as this, I think it is significant…

  294. No the extent of my argument is that I have acknowledged that their ads were wrong and Mr Dion has just moved on from them and will not use such strategies to promote/tear down another party/leader…
    The people have moved on, and Mr Dion has moved on, but now the Conservatives have decided to bring us back in more ways than one. In this instance they are going back with the attack ads that insult the intelligence of Canadians.

  295. “it was simply a gauge/temp…community”–no, it was a silly exercise that you portrayed on this board as something significant–you should apologize that I needed to call you out on this!
    “when I see people..Mr Harper running the country” you should feel proud! (Not disgusted as when the lie-beral corruption boys were running this country.) Who could agrue?

  296. “many of the potential ads were pulled…same cant be said”–what the hell! Is this the extent of your arguement? In other words…the lie-berals could have been worse!!!
    Some honest lie-beral MP’s expressed their disgust with the ads; yet, Dion remained quiet–just like his current parliamentary performance. Oh my, you have GOT to be feeling a little sheepish right about now.

  297. Just cant get off of this eh? I was speaking to them at a gathering and they brought up the Green Shift,&I unofficially “polled” them.I have been clear that it was not some sort of scientifically accurate to a certain percentage point poll;it was simply a gauge/temperature of major business leaders in my community.
    I would love to ride my youth right into middle age without a care in the world,but when I see people like Mr Harper running the country I feel obligated to step in and change things.

  298. When you have a terrible environmental plan and the opposition party comes up with a credible plan that may just swing the electorate in the opposition’s favour, it is natural to go on the offensive.Unfortunately for Mr Harper, that will not work; Canadians will see through it…

  299. Lets bring up old stuff…how many times do I have to reiterate that I was ashamed of the ads.And many of the potential ads were pulled before they aired. The same cant be said about the Conservative ad campaign of late…
    Stephane Dion is not Paul Martin, he should not have to apologize for Martin’s mistakes.Martin ultimately authorized the ads.Whether or not Mr Dion disagreed with the ads or not his say would not have been enough to end them.

  300. I just walked around my neighbourhood and talked to 61 households in the area. I explained to them the rising fear Cdns have if ever the corrupt lie-berals should again get into power. How lie-berals stole, lied and enjoyed their entitlements. I also explained how Dion was part of that gov’t. They were very interested, asked questions and thanked me for info and agreed Canada should come first. Wow–I got 100%–owe me an apology???lolol

  301. “Im not sure what is”–of that, I have no doubt. Just check Martin’s (and, of course, therefore Dion’s) “Soldiers in our Streets” ad in the last election. But, these lib-erals sure know how to smear–don’t they?
    (BTW Dion never disassociated himself from the ads–real courage that man has–doesn’t he?) Just wondering….

  302. Oh my god…are you ever insane! “they themselves brought up the issues” you already told us that you polled them! Can you at least get your own story straight?
    My little grasshopper, go back to your fantasy land; but, leave the real world to us adults–it is simply too important. ;^)

  303. Confirming the bias?The Green Shift document tells the public what the plan involves and they steps to be taken to initiate it; what else are you to use to allow people to understand what the plan involves?
    Btw,maybe you can get your buddy Harper to stop smear campaign that he started 3 weeks BEFORE the plan even came out.If thats not a smear campaign based on lies and scare tactics Im not sure what is.
    For dessert I figured you could simply swallow some of your pride,that will fill you up!

  304. They know that I am a Liberal yet they themselves brought up the issues…I find that interesting…when they seek my opinion and ask me genuine questions that I answered Im confident that they are not simply wasting their time in some sort of ploy…they did not have to bring it up in the first place but they did because they wanted the facts…

  305. Oh my…”their overall feelings are genuine” once you explain the plan to them. Any thoughts they may have just said they agreed with you just to get rid of you?
    I’d be tempted except for my desire to express the middle ground in this debate.

  306. Thanks for confirming the bias since you used the bias Green Shaft document itself.
    If you can’t wait until election day, beg your boy, Dion to be a leader and to quit hiding when votes come up in the commons.
    “ready to bring something”–I’d thought I’d bring a nice pot of crow since that is what you will be eating!

  307. Absolutely…it isn’t something that I can extrapolate to the rest of the area but others look up to these particular business owners and after having candid conversations with them I know that their overall feelings are genuine.

  308. Did I say that it was some sort of scientific poll? No, I said that I gauged the temperature of major business owners in the area.I feel its important to not simply poll someone on a question but discuss things with them.
    My biased way? I explained the facts using the Green Shift document itself…thanks for coming out there though…
    Btw, I cant wait until election day, Im planning the victory parade already…are you ready to bring something to the potluck beforehand?

  309. So this is your overwhelming support? 3/61 maybe 4%? And you, in your very bias way, “explained the facts”–I’m sure that was a true scientific study!
    Please, don’t embarass yourself like this…the true survey will be on election day–can’t wait!

  310. The model of non-renewable resources versus renewable resources being depleted throughout the world because of our linear consumption patterns? Like I said, the plans to combat climate change help us solve the other problem we have that no one can dispute…where can we put all our waste?

  311. Well yes and no…the media may not always get the truth but they are always looking for a story…and the government/politics is an area where many seek that front page story…
    So if the government does not want to be on the front page for problematic issues, they try to avoid the issues that create such problems…and thus the accountability…the media keeping them in line…

  312. That is true that some get “cut some slack” by certain media outlets…but those same people get bashed by other media outlets…I would not say that the media is left leaning…it is probably squarely centre overall if you “average” them all out…

  313. This is a rural town, a Conservative hot bed lets remember…
    And I am going to a town hall meeting tomorrow night that will explain the Green Shift plan to people in my riding. The meeting is totally open to the public and it is expected that most of the attendees will be farmers…
    I ll be sure to report the good news to you when I get back!;)

  314. Out of the 6 I spoke to…3 totally embraced it, 1 was skeptical but liked the general idea, and the other didn’t mind the idea but had doubts about whether it would come to pass…
    None of them, once I explained the facts of the plan to them, completed rejected the plan…they had legitimate concerns that I answered and they were satisfied with the answers…
    One of them went as far to say the Conservative attack ads were way off base and attack the intelligence of people…

  315. Unbiased study and much less politics is needed. One problem with scientists is that their findings will usually fall in line with the thinking of the people who pay them. As a minimum, scientific findings need to be open-ended enough to not contradict what the politicians say. The scientists like to keep the research dollars coming in and government sources of cash are the most reliable. The ‘climate change’ crowd is too politicized for me. I’ll pass on the socialistic ‘solutions’, thanks.

  316. Nick- This is the last line of defence of the alarmists: ‘even if global warming isn’t happening, you should do what we say anyway’. This is the fundamental failure of environmentalism – no matter what happens, the environmentalists claim their proposals (international socialism and increased taxation) are the ‘right’ thing to do. How can you know that when your model is flawed and incomplete?

  317. Poooor, pooor nickgibson1! Asked a question that he cannot wiggle out of and he throws a hissy fit. (Similar to Dion when he couldn’t set priorities.) Okay, okay…here is the question again…how many of those business owners that embraced Carbon Taxes in your neighbourhood? Next post from you should be a simple number…waiting…

  318. Earth avgs about 150 million km’s from the sun
    Venus: avg 110 million km’s
    Mercury: avg 60 million km’s (but as little as about 45 mil km’s)

    Venus and Earth (the twin planets) are pretty similar in distance (relative to the solar system)…once you get outside of the asteroid belt (ie after Mars) you get the crazy distances (if the first ones weren’t already)
    Mercury takes more heat on than Venus but Venus retains more heat than Mercury because of its dense atmosphere of CO2…

  319. I totally understand your skepticism and I accept your views because you are not totally dismissing the current evidence but you are just wary of its accuracy. All I have to say is this (not sure if you’ve heard this from me).Whether or not man-accelerated climate change is happening or not there is only benefit in taking sensible action.The sensible action would create a more sustainable economy that ends the linear nature of our consumption.That is good for the earth and ultimately humans.

  320. Medical science and other sciences aren’t that different. Science theorizes and operates as though the theory is correct. Until a theory is disproven, the believers put faith in it.

    I see global warming the same way. The answers are in the future, which we can’t control or know.

    Predicting the future is like forecasting what stock prices will be in 2014 – the farther into the future you try to go, more variables will enter and ruin the predictions.

  321. When medical science unlocks the mysteries of the brain, they will look back on what we do now like we look back on medicine of the 18th century. When they begin tapping into the healing powers of the mind, they’ll be able to cure practically anything. They’ll be look back at things like chemo the way we look back at the leeches and things doctors did 200 years ago.

  322. You would have to get into how the solar system and universe were formed to come up with theories on what may have happened on Venus. There is much to learn.

    It’s like the human body – medical science knows more than it did 250 years ago. That said, how much of the total knowledge that there is to know do they actually know? I bet it’s less than 5%.

  323. You’ll have to refresh my memory – aren’t Mercury and Venus much closer to the sun and each other than Venus is to Earth. Mercury isn’t that much closer. It’s in the same neighbourhood. It’s also smaller and different structurally so it may retain less heat or disperse it easier than Venus?

    The whole thing is still evolving so more study wouldn’t hurt. Jumping to conclusions with what is currently known may not be wise.

  324. True, there are flaws with Kyoto. The credits just allowed for countries who wanted to participate but take longer to meet their goals in to the plan…
    The strengths of Kyoto are the absolute targets on GHG emissions…

  325. I cannot say with certainty whether or not the apparent oceans disappeared over millions of years or not but it wouldn’t make sense for them to take that long to disappear with the sort of temperatures that Venus has…
    Changes in the sun do accelerate it too but the fact that we are enclosing more and more of this heat within our atmosphere and allowing more in in the first place. That is the problem with Climate Change…

  326. Not that I believe man should pollute for the hell of it. Pollution endangers our own health more than the health of the planet. If you want to reduce pollution, make the rest of the world live up to North American and European standards, especially the 3rd world. Socialist redistribution of wealth such as Kyoto do not address that. Wealthy countries buying pollution credits from poor countries doesn’t address anything.

  327. Well Mercury is a planet (poor Pluto…always an afterthought)…but what you have said reinforces my point. The fact that it is farther than Mercury but hotter because of its thick (GHG-predominant) atmosphere shows what could happen if our atmosphere continues to thicken with CO2 and other GHG’s (and if ozone is not improved or worsens)…

  328. Your other point about Venus fits to my belief that changes in the sun are more dominant than anything man could ever do. Also the Venus thing may be part of an evolutionary process. The disappearing oceans may has taken millions of years. If it’s happening to Venus, why couldn’t the same type of process happen to earth? Nothing you or I can control. Why worry?

  329. Nick – Venus is the warmest because it is closest to the sun. Mercury is closer but is more like a rock with a planetary style orbit. Do you know if they still consider Mercury a planet(it was when I was in school)? It would follow that Venus’s atmosphere would be high in carbon gases. Everything is gaseous because of the heat.

  330. You just sound like one, that’s all. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…well, just admit it. The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem. Right now you are in denial.

    I’m only here to help you escape your left-wing/liberal mind-set and heal yourself. My prescription is true conservatism and the doctor is ‘in’. Let me help.

  331. Obviously man has not done anything but there were indications that there were ocean waters there and now there are not. The atmosphere is 92 times more dense than the Earth’s and is 95%+ made of C02…and Venus’ climate is the warmest of all terrestrial planets…
    I cannot simply dismiss that as coincidence…

  332. Lets be clear here…I am not some free ranging, anti-capitalistic socialist…
    The fact that I am not, but accept the strong science of climate change must mean something.
    Secondly, global warming is a slang term. “Climate Change” is the terminology that has been used for years.

  333. There have been tsunamis, hurricanes, typhoons, floods, droughts, etc., etc. as long as man has existed. We have more ability to find and track this stuff now. It was happening before, we just didn’t know as much about it.

  334. Dion and Ignatieff are both about as interesting as ditch water. You like them because you are a ‘tax and spend’/nanny-state Liberal. That’s what they are. It follows that you like them. Simple common sense again.

  335. When a company pays out dividends it benefits tax-wise. All Harper did was balance the sysem the way it would have been had the Liberals dealt with the problem sooner.

  336. What good is a lie-beral promise? (Eliminate the GST, cancel the FTA, eliminate Child Poverty by 2000). Best to look at the track record….and, boy, Mr. Harper sure looks head and shoulders above anyone else!

  337. Firstly,I`m not a Liberal. This beautiful country has been hijacked by bums. Libs, Cons, NDP`s, all bums. Unit holders pay the tax. That was my point. Now taxes will be paid at both levels, corporate and at the unit holder level. However, even if what you say was true , then Harpo shouldn`t have lied about them just to get himself elected, creating damage and financial instability among Canada`s seniors ( which is what he said would happen if they were taxed). What good is a Con promise?

  338. … and those that may have stayed will fold up the tent and leave as well. Nothing drives out incentive and drives business away faster than increasing taxes. Even the imbecile Granholm in Michigan claims to have finally had that revelation.

  339. There’s an old saying: “Figures don’t lie but liars can figure”.

    I’m not trusting of any government accounting. It is ‘creative’ at best and outright fiction at worst. The sponsorship scandal and McGuinty in Ontario destroyed the already microscopic trust I may have ever had of the Liberal party. The best thing is to keep the money out of their hands in the first place.

  340. All the leading scientists in the 70’s concluded that we were entering an ice age where we would freeze and starve to death. Science was not exact then, why is it now? The solutions proposed always seem to be socialistic in nature, which in itself is not something I trust. More study is needed. In any case I don’t believe socialist solutions are the answer. Government screws up more than they ever fix.

    Government is never the solution to problems, it is the problem.

  341. My source of information is common sense and logical thought. The sun is the source of the earth’s heat and light. NASA claimed Mars is warming similar to earth some time back. Mars and the earth share the same sun. It follows that the sun would have more effect on the earth’s climate than anything else. There have been ice ages and hot periods in earth’s history. Why should you assume that the earth’s climate does not go in cycles, like everything else in life?

  342. Pleasssssse, just answer the question!!! (Are you afraid?) Oh, guess what? I just walked around my neighbourhood and they are terrified of Dion’s tax grab….pretty scientific isn’t it? Grow up!

  343. Unlikely they will? With both major candidates proposing the cap and trade system? I find it very likely to happen…most businesses who contemplate moving to China or India would have done so without the carbon tax plan…

  344. Maybe it would. But would it give you the infrastructure that goes along with it…the roads, bridges, highways…your tax dollars go to many places…
    How about education…
    Many places man not just healthcare. No doubt there are problems but to call for tax cuts,etc then expect better healthcare? You cant have your cake and eat it too…

  345. What are you even talking about? Its funny that you try to make yourself look good by asking the same questions in different forms only not to be satisfied when you realize im coming back with the same answer I gave you to your last question of the same nature…your reply to my revenue neutrality quote doesnt even make sense…

  346. They signed up for it because they wanted to try…and they had many years in which to run this plan. They then realized that the appetite for the change they desired was simply not there…

  347. Not sure where you are getting this cry from the business commmunity…where is your poll?
    I did not poll the people I know, I simply talked to them about it and got their thoughts…
    How again is it a tax grab when it is revenue neutral (something guaranteed because it will be law and assessed annually by a third party in the auditor general)

  348. (btw this is nick on my siblings account)
    Yet ppl believe this correlational evidence to be causational.Its not,but the correlation for man-accelerated climate change is strong and I accept it.
    My thought is this…if Climate Change is not happening as a result of man-made phenomenon then thats fine because our action would turn us into a more sustainable economy that we need Climate change or not.

  349. Uhhhhhh…again, please answer the question…how many businesses did you poll?
    Interesting how they are “strong”, “good”, “great”…my, o’my…why is the business community screaming about this tax grap in the media. I guess you found the only group in Canada that agrees with the non-leader, Dion. Ironic isn’t it????

  350. Apparently you keep ignoring the facts (you would have to to try to maintain arguing). If the “appetite for environmental action…was next to zero” why did the lie-berals sign the Kyoto Accord? (Big “glup” as you realize the corner you have painted yourself in.)

  351. I am not going to argue this point because I don’t know the specific source of your information and have not analyzed it.What I will say is this…I do believe in Climate Change and that it is being accelerated by human activity.And I do realize it is not a certainty in terms of science but neither are things like high saturated fat and cholesterol causing heart disease/attacks.

  352. Funny all you know about me is that I am a strong Liberal…you don’t know that I work for a strong business in my community and have strong ties with others in my community…they are good business people they realize that shifting taxes away from their profits to pollution is great for business and the environment.

  353. Apparently no one can argue or discuss with you because you simply dismiss valid points and truth…
    Im not going to go over it again I have told you before…the appetite for environmental action during Liberal Majorities was next to zero, and when that started to change there was no way to get anything done with a climate change denying Conservative party, and a “lets steal votes/seats from the Liberals” NDP.

  354. I strongly disagree–no one could be stupider than Dion! (His own lie-berals laughed at him at the convention…you think it’s easy to make priorities?)…lolol

  355. And how many business owners have you talked to? (God, this is getting funnier by the moment.) You are like Dion–saying how good this is for the economy–while Dion has sat around and never run a business. Time for the dunce cap for both of you!

  356. Again the word, “plan”–the environment does not care about plans, strategies, promises–the environment needs action–like George Bush who outperformed Dion’s lie-berals. Agree? (Wow, after 13yrs of inaction the lie-berals were, “just about to do something”–you are frankly sounding like a fool.

  357. “Income Trusts are an effective way of avoiding the taxman”. “Seniors depend on IT`s to pay the bills ” We know where the Liberals stand on raiding seniors hard earned assets”. All Harper lies. He damaged the financial health of hundreds of thousands of Canadians. Income Trusts are structured so taxes are paid by the unit holder. There`s nothing “fair and balanced”, about the Cons Taxation Fairness . Now many IT`S have been bought out or gone private so Harper can`t collect his precious tax

  358. Anybody else wonder why it’s not being called ‘global warming’ these days? Remember when they said the colder winter was because of global warming? That sounded stupid – that’s why it became climate change. Now, no matter what the weather does – gets colder, warmer or stays the same – assholes like Dion will still be able to fleece us with enviro-taxation and control behaviour. Dion is a big government liberal – and government always knows best and has the answers. Just ask him.

  359. *typo* The problem I see is that the so-called solution to ‘climate change’ (hey – why isn’t it called global warming any more?) is always socialism. The Chinese and India can pollute like mofos without consequence, but the wealthy countries will be have to buy pollution credits – seriously, how does that stop pollution?

  360. The problem I see is that the so-called solution to ‘climate change’ (hey – why isn’t it called global warming any more?) is always socialistism. The Chinese and India can pollute like mofos without consequence, but the wealthy countries will be have to buy pollution credits – seriously, how does that stop pollution?

  361. Accurate measurement of climate phenomena is a recent development of the last 50 years at most. If the earth’s entire time was the equivalent of a 24 hour period, the time we’ve been able to accurately measure and record this stuff would be the equivalent of less than the last three seconds before midnight. Drawing conclusions fifty years out is questionable science.

  362. Here’s the newsflash – ‘Climate change’ or ‘global warming’ is a hoax. NASA has determined that Mars was showing a warming trend as well. Could it be that the sun – the original source of all of the earth’s heat and light – is undergoing a normal cycle and earth’s climate varies because of that? There’s a thought – the weather changes! Amazing. 30 years ago all the scientists said it was getting colder and we would all starve and freeze to death.

  363. The problem with crown corporations is their pipeline into taxpayers pockets, which private companies don’t (usually) have. Governments can lose money endlessly and there isn’t any accountability. There is little incentive to control costs. Not many politicians will risk losing votes by massive layoffs at a crown corporation. Politics always comes before the proper running of a business. As I said, I’ve seen this type of thing first hand. Nobody wastes money faster than government.

  364. Crown corporations do not add competition to the market place – they remove it or prevent it from occurring. The consumer rarely sees the benefit – Trudeau created Petro-Canada and nobody ever saved a nickle on gasoline. Please explain how massive debts and out-of-control spending at Ontario Hydro helped Ontario’s electrical customers. CN was a disaster until Mulroney divested us of it.

  365. …Business owners I talk to say they like the idea that their profits will be taxed less and they can work in favour of the environment.That makes good business sense, and they can use the “green” look as a marketing strategy.

  366. Sure they can “eat” the carbon taxes, if it is a competitive marketplace and one decides to keep their prices stagnant then others will do the same. Do I believe that will happen? Not very often it won’t…
    For companies to pack up and leave they will face the same challenges in other developed nations such as the US who will most likely move to a cap and trade system (both candidates endorse it).

  367. The problem with the Avro Arrow project is the tunnel vision that Mr Diefenbaker had.He has pressure from his American counterpart to scrap the project and he did so,b/c of that and also because the Arrow was obsolete in terms of its original use (to block missles from the USSR).But he did not account for the consequences of scraping the project. He did not realize that all of these engineers and technicians moved to NASA and the technology would soon be used to create F-18s for military use…

  368. It is unfortunate that there were problems with these crown corporations but the truth is that there is a reason for crown corporations: they are to step in where the private sector will not, or to step in to add some competition to the marketplace. They are not meant to make money and generally lose money, but ultimately the investment is typically prudent in that it helps the consumer in the end…

  369. No I am in fact very proud to support a party that couples the success in the economy with environmental sustainability and social justice. I am proud of a party that will make Canada once again the moral conscience of the world instead of having the Republican farm team do their best to make big club…

  370. …By the time the Liberals had steered the economy straight they found themselves in a minority govt situation with a climate-change denying Conservative opposition and a “lets take seats from the Liberals” NDP…nothing can get done in that situation despite best intentions.

  371. Well Im pretty sure I have addressed this already clearly but you like to make yourself look all high and mighty. The truth is, there was no action on the environment during the 90’s because there was no appetite from Canadians do do it when we came out of one of the biggest recessions (esp Ont) since the 30’s.

  372. Oh the corruption boys are still in the lie-beral party! Best to give the lie-berals a rest of say….10 years? Canada is too important to take a chance. Who could disagree?

  373. Again, so funny. Answer me this–so Dryden and Iggy were wrong to say–“they didn’t get it done?”–why are they not drummed out of the lie-beral party? You answer will make everyone on this site laugh and you try to pathetically defend.

  374. What to have a laugh? When a lie-beral starts their usual silliness..ask the lie-beral supporter…”Tell me what the lie-berals did for the environment in 13 years and you can’t use any words regarding planned”. Great fun as they sputter and shout and get red faced! Then ask them to, “Stand up for Canada”!

  375. nick – The companies that can’t pass the costs on will simply fold up the tent and look for a nicer campground. The government can tell a company how to business here, but they can’t force them to stay here.

    Those businesses that can’t leave will not eat anything, they will simply pass the costs on to the customers. If they can’t make a profit, they go out of business or depend on subsidies from the government. It’s basic business and economic principles.

  376. Liberal governments under Trudeau tried to infuse life into the lifeless corpse of Avro and its successor companies in the Canadian aerospace industry. Taxpayers took a horrible beating and received little in return. Bombardier, another favourite Liberal welfare case, has picked up some of the pieces for pennies on the dollar over the years.

    The government can make Canada a small fortune, but they have to start with a much bigger one.

  377. One of the favourite Liberal stories in Canadian folklore is the Avro Corporation. The Avro ‘Arrow’ was to be a world-class military aircraft that would put Canada’s aerospace industry among the world’s best. It was dependent on government funding which was reduced under Diefenbaker. Oddly enough, no investment money could be found anywhere in Canada or the world to keep this company going. Ever since, Canadian Liberals have blamed Diefenbaker for ‘what could have been’ in Canadian aerospace.

  378. The list of money-losing crown corporations and corporate welfare cases is a long one and testament to the failure of politicians to responsibly handle tax dollars. The only answer is to drastically reduce the money flowing to governments and keep government responsibilities clear, defined and severely limited.

  379. I’ve heard this all before, Nick. Google these: The Bricklin, de Havilland, Air Canada, Canadair, Canadian National, Algoma Steel, Petro Canada, Ontario Hydro. This lists just a small number of the economic disasters Canadian taxpayers have endured due to government ‘helping out’. It is not the job of government to ‘pick the winners’ in the economy.

  380. I was a student once myself. Nothing there prepared me for the education I’ve gotten getting hammered by Revenue Canada year in and year out. I get almost nothing in return – unless you consider a two month wait to see my doctor good health care. To see a knee specialist has taken over 8 months. 1/4 of the amount I pay in taxes would get me one hell of a health plan over in Michigan or New York.

  381. These investments are not life preservers, or drugs for a drug addict. They will not need to come back for more. They simply need a bit of help to get going and the market will right the ship itself…

  382. Why is it Canadians have to ‘get past’ the sponsorship scandal but Mulroney is still being investigated and trashed by the media long after he left office? Why did the crook Chretien use the full weight of government litigation to attack Mulroney? Why didn’t the Liberals just get past it?

    Remember too that Harper’s government is looking at Mulroney too – getting to the bottom of it. Should they ‘get past’ that too?

  383. Say that many companies eat the costs of the carbon tax initially;which is fine b/c they have the right to do so.By year 4 that choice may be a flawed one if they decided to not address(or did very minimal work on) their emissions because by that point the tax will be at its highest and would move higher after that (w/ more offsetting tax cuts of course) in addition to the workings of a cap and trade system.People need more $ in their pockets to help steer the market themselves…

  384. I was negatively impacted by the decision – I had shares in BCE when Harper brought in the change. The income trust was a bubble that needed to be burst before it got worse, it was the right decision. Had the Liberals dealt with the problem earlier, it would have been only a small blip in the markets. They were fully aware of the problem developing but chose to ignore it. They chose popularity rather than do what was right.

  385. Frankly Im not sure where exactly the money will come from but there is money there. I would be lying to say I did because I am not him…all I can tell you is that is not coming from the Green Shift plan.

  386. I am not condoning the Sponsorship Scandal…it was an embarrassment to Canada.
    I just know that people have to get past it, I know it may prove difficult but it is for the best of the country because that will not happen again and Mr Harper cannot lead this country any longer…

  387. Nick – The Liberal government made more than a “huge mistake” – it was CORRUPTION. The federal Liberal lined Liberal pockets through the sponsorship program. Chretien as leader of the party and the country is responsible – he was in charge. Yet he’s gotten away with it.

  388. Well why is it that the Conservatives accepted Mr Gomery to work the inquiry?
    They thought he would expose the “dirt”. He did, the Liberal Party made a huge mistake and those who are guilty are being tried.
    The others face public scrutiny despite being cleared by Mr Gomery. I dont think that is fair…

  389. Ok that is fine. But if you believe that to be so, why run your election platform with the firm stance that you will not tax income trusts.
    If you have been given new information or learn something new then at least engage in some sort of public consultation process because unfortunately a lot people have been negatively affected by this choice…

  390. Well I can assure you that I value each and every one of my dollars that I earn. As a student, they are very hard to come by despite my best efforts to save. However, I do believe in this plan because it allows me to pocket more of my money and make choices on what I want to buy.

  391. Middle and lower income earners drive older vehicles because they can’t afford a new vehicle – hybrid or not. Government intervention (subsidies) create a false economic structure for those technologies and the need for more and more subsidies, either at the production end or at the consumer end. The result is the same – the government takes more to pay for it. It comes from increased taxation. This is socialist economics and does not work.

  392. The taxation of income trusts needed to be re-structured. The Liberals chose to ignore the problem. The inequities due to taxation gave income trusts had an advantage over corporate structures that should not have existed. Harper did what needed to be done in the tax treatment of trusts.

  393. Ok so what programs and services is Dion going to cut to find this money for the phantom investment? Or is he going to raise taxes to pay for it? Sure not the same taxes he’s cutting in order to ‘give back’ the carbon tax revenue.

  394. You’re saying the tax is about sending a price signal again, but that just doesn’t make any sense because Dion’s tax is insignificant compared to price increases already occurring in the market. You agree demand is ineleastic, but you still expect a 3% price increase from Dion’s tax to have a greater impact than a 180% price increase from the market. Seriously, what’s the point of the tax if the market is sending price signals on its own?

  395. He’s been cleared by Liberal friends in high places. Canada has been under the control of Liberals most of its history and Liberals are in many prominent government and judicial positions. Don’t think for a minute Chretien isn’t being repayed for previous favours.

  396. I have already said that the tax does affect prices and Mr Dion has already acknowledged that.
    It steers the market because it will make more business sense to cut your costs (carbon taxes) by investing in emission-cutting practices.They can finance these investments with the tax cuts.The business itself will be better off with environmentally-friendly products because that is what consumers will be looking for…
    That is the “steering” of the market…

  397. The plan is revenue neutral (technically it is a net tax cut initially to ensure any extra revenues from the carbon tax are offset). And the neutrality of the tax will be reviewed annually by the Auditor General. Basically its like your income taxes every year, if you pay too much income tax you get a return and thats what would happen if the carbon taxes were not initially offset.

  398. Well, the Auditor General broke open the sponsorship scandal and identified $40 million stolen by the Liberal Party. But it turns out we can’t trust the Liberals to pay it back, why should we trust them to refund the carbon tax? And anyway why should we even try to trust Dion when his tax won’t actually make a difference. We agree demand is inelastic and there are no workable alternatives, so WHAT’S THE POINT OF THE TAX?

  399. Demand will not change, you are right. Where the demand will be satisfied will though. Non-renewable resources such as Oil (the spine of our current economy) will be depended on less, while there will be a greater emphasis on products that have significantly reduced emissions or no emissions at all.
    The revenue neutral part is clearly laid out in the plan if you read it.Its guaranteed by an independent third party: the Auditor General.She will review the plan every year to ensure its neutrality.

  400. People are skeptical because of the Conservative attack games full of lies…
    And no the tax will not be put on gas prices. Dion has admitted that there will be some affect on the price but it will be very minimal because oil is a global commodity and the prices will not skyrocket because of a carbon tax in Canada.

  401. Dion and the Liberals say the tax won’t affect gas prices, not me. That’s a ridiculous claim, but there you have it.

    But my point is even if it does increase prices it won’t have any effect because of the proven inelasticity of demand.

    So its a pointless tax, and its only virtue is that is it is supposed to be revenue neutral. But we have to trust that it will actually be revenue neutral in order to support it. People are skeptical about Dion’s plan and his promise to give the money back.

  402. People will reduce their energy consumption at first because they will realize the costs associated and the limited alternatives initially. But they will start to find the more efficient, cleaner and cheaper alternatives and will move to these products…

  403. As far as alternatives go, they are out there. But unfortunately their success is limited right now because they cannot compete with the Oil Giants. The Green Shift allows them to become more competitive because they will receive tax breaks and will pay limited carbon taxes. More and more companies will find it financially feasible to move into this market as well and thus the growth of the green sector snowballs.

  404. The tax doesn’t leave prices unchanged, Im not sure where you got that from. That is the whole point of the tax; raise prices on inefficient products (things that create GHG or were produced and resulted in high GHG). The price changes will be offset by cuts in income taxes and corporate taxes allowing people to have more disposable income in which to spend on more efficient choices, while companies can use the extra capital to reduce their emissions (and their carbon taxes)…

  405. Well we have different numbers in terms of individuals contributions to GHG and where they come from.I did not dismiss vehicles by any stretch but there are other huge contributors including electricity use, waste disposal, heating,etc.Certainly, the benefits of cutting GHG from vehicles is that it makes up a significant difference in terms of real results and the visual nature of the project itself.

  406. Sorry but transportation is a significant 25% of Canada’s total GHG emissions, and is 80% of individuals’ emissions.

    But how can Dion’s tax simultaneously leave prices unchanged while also providing an incentive to change our individual energy choices? And what realstic choices do we have anyway? Energy demand is very inelastic, and will be until some real alternatives are available.

    Meanwhile Dion’s tax accomplishes nothing. But we should all trust him to give the money back. Yeah right.

  407. They could have.But Canadians were not ready for such action on Climate Change.They were more focussed on the economy after coming out of one of the hardest recessions in recent memory(esp Ontario).Once the Liberals balanced the books they did shift their focus to the environment.But by that time though they found themselves in a minority government with an NDP balance of power who felt they would be better off in another election rather than moving forward positive environmental legislation.

  408. Actually there are already huge federal taxes on gas thats why there will be no tax on gas at the pump.And technically no that isn’t the area where individuals create the most GHG emissions; it is the most visible but not the most contributing (still important area to cut though).
    One reason that you cannot see the alternatives in the current marketplace is because it is an unfair marketplace for them. The Green Shift will help level the playing field for them to get ahead.

  409. Yes it will punish polluters. Thats the whole point…but for those whose intentions are to convert their companies to more environmentally friendly/sustainable way they can finance this transition with the tax cuts…
    Funny how this is all the Conservatives have.Attack attack attack because they have no substance of their own.How about constrasting their plan with the Liberal plan in an open public debate?No,Conservatives cant do that because of course their plan is an embarrassment.

  410. I do know that Mr Harper has his masters in Economics. I also know that he cut the GST, a tax that in the mind of economists was the worst tax he could have cut in terms of boosting economic consumption.

  411. So the tax “will not cripple”…but, I therefore assume will hurt. Will Dion quit flip-flopping on this issue (he did vow never to bring a tax in like this). Will this man ever be a leader?

  412. I find it interesting that you do not acknowledge that Mr. Harper is an economist; and, therefore, by your pov should certainly have more insight than Mr. Dion—Mr. Ivory Tower. How could you disagree?

  413. Uhhh…again…you are wrong! The lie-berals could have lead rather than lie about environmental initiatives (signing Kyoto) and then having a worse record than non-signers (the US). Looks like lie-beral excuse, after excuse about their inaction is becoming ridicuous…any surprise?

  414. Wow!!! Everyone is against the apron-wearer (Dion)don’t they call that “paranoia”? Guess most Cdn’s agree with Iggy and Dryden…Dion just didn’t get it done!

  415. Don’t get angry!!! Just because no evidence was found…Since Dion was the Quebec cabinet rep. this must prove he is (was) incompetent…can’t have it both ways can you? Just wondering…

  416. So we are supposed to support this Green Shift because it will change our behavior by sending a price signal and incresing the cost of energy?

    But the new tax supposedly won’t affect the price at the pump, which is where individuals create most GHG emmissions. I guess the idea is to make us switch to alternative energy sources … except there are NO ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS!

    So we’re left with a new tax that won’t accomplish anything, but don’t worry the Liberals will give the money back.

  417. I think I have already made this clear. I am not condoning their inaction, I simply am stating the reason why it did not happen. Public support for Climate Change initiatives was very low and thus the government didn’t feel that the public wanted such action. A majority govt may structurally have the capacity to pass whatever bills they please more or less but if they seek re-election they must make sure that such bills are in line with the public confidence.

  418. The tax is progressive and will not cripple anyone right away. It will make good business sense to start cleaning up your particular business and you will be financed by offsetting tax cuts. By year 4, if you have played your cards right, you will be ahead of the game because you will pay minimal tax while reaping the tax cut rewards…

  419. I find it interesting that you are not responding to my quote from an economist. Further, it is not wealth distribution as you term it (more Conservative rhetoric). It is focussed on polluters throughout the country (that includes southern Ontario). The tar sands will have to clean up their ways and they have the added benefit of tax cuts to finance the clean up (not that they need it with their outrageous profits).

  420. Sorry its my fault. I will make it a bit clearer. The NDP hate it because the price on pollution portion is taken out of their playbook, and the Conservatives hate it because it is a competent and sensible plan unlike their current environmental strategy.

  421. Man you could run some of the pathetic Conservative attack ads with your lousy rhetoric. He hid his tracks well? The truth is he has been cleared of any wrong-doing by competent authorities. Are you questioning Judge Gomery’s competence?

  422. Pleeeeease, get your story straight! The NDP hates the plan, the Conservatives hate the plan (they are thinking of Cdns rather than their party). It is obvious Dion has layed a very big egg. I guess time to again laugh at him as lie-berals did at the convention…just wondering…

  423. Hmmmm…are you talking about lie-beral promises to drop the GST? Or the biggest lie to run an honest gov’t. Dion was at the center of the lie-beral corruption scandal; however, he hid his tracks well. Thank goodness we now have a leader in Mr. Harper–Mr. Dithers (Martin) or Mr Dithers 2 (Dion) just aren’t up to the job.

  424. Actually…the embarrassment to Cdn’s is the lie-beral years of inaction. Just to explain, when one is in a majority gov’t, they can pass whatever bills they want. So, are you saying lie-berals were liers when they preached environmental initiatives? Likely they are still liers, isn’t it?

  425. Since the plan is simply a wealth transfer from traditional low lie-beral support areas to their “home” regions, then I am glad the NDP and Cons. are thinking of Cdn’s first and opposing the plan. When 2 distinct parties from both ends of the political spectrum join to oppose something–you realize how pathetic the lie-beral plan must be…agreed?

  426. They did not do a whole lot during their majority years; its difficult when you dont have widespread public support for such initiatives.Now we have a more than receptive electorate and a Prime Minister whose plan is an embarrassment to Canadians and does little in the way of reducing emissions (and remember there are no offsetting tax cuts like the Green Shift in their plan to offset rises in the costs of goods and energy)

  427. “…it is remarkable the degree of consensus that exists among Canadian economists that some form of carbon taxation is both a desirable and necessary part of any realistic carbon reduction strategy. To suggest otherwise, I’d suggest, is a distortion of the truth.”
    Jim Sentance — Department of Economics, University of Prince Edward Island

  428. “…Jack Mintz, former president of the C.D. Howe institute and now poster boy – literally – for the School of Policy Studies at the University of Calgary, is widely acknowledged as perhaps Canada’s foremost expert on taxation…”

  429. Here is a quote for you: “Far from being opposed to carbon taxes, economists in Canada are, if anything, leading the charge in that direction. The Green Shift proposal put forward by Stéphane Dion and the Liberal Party, for example, is largely based on a paper written by Jack Mintz and Nancy Olewiler…”

  430. I have made it pretty clear yet you are trying to poke holes into a steel argument here.People who find themselves on the right side of the political spectrum support it because of its economic restructuring while those on the left support it because it will finally be concrete action to reduce emissions.
    What I find interesting is that both the NDP and the Conservatives have decided that they must attack the Liberal plan instead of endorsing their own.Sounds like they have no substance.

  431. Interesting…I thought you said the right&left supported Dion’s plan…now you are telling me “of course…will criticize”. Can you at least get your pathetic story right? Just wondering….(ready to Stand up for Canada now?)

  432. Oh my, oh my–how weak your agruement truly is! So the lie-berals took a very pro-environmental stance..and, what exactly did they do? (Answer: worse than nothing–emissions got worse!) Please, be honest, Dion and the lie-berals cannot be trusted. (Want to get a lie-beral supporter angry? Ask them about what the lie-berals did for the environment and tell them they cannot use the word, “Plan”–great fun as their face turns red.)

  433. I am standing up for Canada with a plan that other countries around the world will envy.If you are speaking about left and right criticism, well of course the Conservatives and NDP will criticize it, they certainly cannot endorse it.But because they know the merits of the plan they both decide to attack it instead of endorsing their own plans…

  434. Certainly the Liberals took a very “pro-environment” stance through their years and did not really take significant action until their minority govt years.Then we have Mr Harper come in calling GHG “so-called”,announces that Kyoto is a “socialist scheme to drain money out of rich countries”, and due to public pressure he tries to ‘greenify’ himself.Now he boasts that his plan is cutting GHG emissions significantly,when every environmental expert who has examined it has rejected all of it.